Holydiver lacking the beef

[GuitarIv]

Hey guys,

so today I went to my local musicstore with my Strat loaded with a Holydiver and Slowhands and finally played a "real" amp again since my Valveking died, only to realise that the HD doesn't fit the bill. Don't get me wrong, love the pickup, it just lacks teh metalz I need.

First of all I tried it through a Tiny Terror with an Orange 4*12 and I didn't like it, there wasn't enough distortion and substance and as I turned the gain all the way up, the amp became muddy. Next amp in line was the 6505+ Combo and I really had to turn the bass and the resonance knobs ridiculously way down and crank the highs, the mids and the gain, however the sound still wasn't satisfying. I then took a Jackson with EMGs and a Reverend Sensei (with their own model pickups) as a reference and those sounded fuller and grittier. To describe what I didn't like: the tone was lacking substance, definition and beef, it was "hollow" sounding if that makes any sense. The guitar has a Poplar Body and an all Maple Neck and I guess it's screaming for a ceramic PU with more body, at least I can't imagine what else could fix the issue concerning tightness and substance.

Next and last Amp was a Diezel Herbert. I firstly realised how amazing the Slowhands are and how well they suit the instrument, nice glassy cleans with enough lows and mids not to sound shrill and I guess the Diezel took a part in that. Now on Channel 3 (Lead Channel) the Diver sounded better but as I applied more gain the sound became unpleasantly sizzling and even though the Amps Mid Cut function helped it still doesn't do the trick.

Now I don't know if the Poplar Body is cr@p (30 year old air dried Hungarian Poplar) which would be annoying as it's an expensive custom instrument, or the pickup height is too low (didn't have a screwdriver to adjust) or something else is messing with the sound of the guitar, however I'd really like to solve that problem.

I had a JB in the guitar before and it sounded fine, the HD is clearer but has really low output compared to it. Any Ideas? Miracle Man, maybe even C-Pig? I'm really desperate and don't know why it ain't sounding right :(

p.s.: the guitar sounds amazing going through my shitety 100€ Zoom effects pedal into my 15 watt Washburn practice amp. WTF.

Hope you can help and cheers

[Brow]

The 1st thing I'd check would be the height as you suggested.

Failing that, check the wiring as it sounds like you may have a fault somewhere possibly? The HD is meant to be similar-ish to the JB, but without the massive nasal mids of the JB, and certainly shouldn't be much lower in output. I have both HDs and a JB in different (but similar style) guitars and output wise they're pretty much the same to my ears. Although the mid spike of the JB could possibly make it seem louder.

[darkbluemurder]

First of all the good news: if the Slowhands sound great in the guitar, it is most likely not the guitar's fault if you don't like the bridge pickup - it just may not be a good combination with that particular guitar, with your set up or playing style. But I agree with Brow that the HD should not be much lower output than the JB so check whether the wiring and height set up is correct first. 

The BKP site lists the Black Dog and the Rebel Yell as humbuckers for HSS set ups with the Slowhands. Rebel Yell would be brighter and more cutting than the Holydiver but would have a bit less output. Based on your description the Painkiller could fit but would probably be much louder than the Slowhands. Miracle Man should be a good choice, too - more bass and treble and a bit more output compared to the Holydiver.

Cheers Stephan

[GuitarIv]

Thanks for the answers guys -

I'm pretty sure that the wiring can't be faulty as I just completely redid it last month and experienced the problem with the lacking beef before - I dismissed it as a problem my amp has, the Valveking isn't a high gain monster like the Diezel Herbert. However having the same problem with said high end amp again, something must be wrong.

Now I will confess that I didn't mess around with the PU height and maybe I'm overreacting right now, however if that doesn't resolve the problem, I'm pretty sure it's the wrong PU for the guitar. Would the MM couple well with the Slowhands?

[Cpt_Gonzo]

Look - I'm one of those overreacting gearnuts, too.

I have two guitars with HDs. A swamp ash, maple strat and a Les Paul.
It sounds enormous in the Strat. Just awesome.

When I first installed it in the LP, it sounded even better. Then I thought "well, lets tweak the height and polepieces, it can only get better, right?" WRONG!

Sounds thin. Doesn't cut through the mix. Like a buzzsaw.
So, it IS an adjustment thing. I'll end up replacing my electronics with CTS pots and K40Ys, too (pots shorting out), but it's all a matter of finding the sweet spot, more so with BKs than with any other Pickup maker.

[nkay]

I tried a Holy Diver in a Charvel Pro Mod San Dimas (alder), and it did not sound good at all. I couldn't mess with the pickup height because they are direct mounted, so I put the original JB in which sounded best.

I tried the Holy Diver again in a MIJ Fender Contemporary Strat HSS (basswood), and it sounded great, although still needs a boost. It definitely does not have the same amount of output as a JB. The tone is there, but yeah, definitely less gain than what I was used to. I have a Marshall JVM 410HJS (Joe Satriani version), and I have to run a boost to get it to where I want (tighter metal sound) even on a high gain channel.

BK pickups are REALLY sensitive to the guitars they go in. I've found that their organic nature really lets the guitar wood tone through. (As opposed to say the JB or Dimarzio Super Distortion which blast through the guitar's natural tone with a ton of output and their own stamp).

In this case, I doubt it's the wood, it's just less output than you are used to.

[GuitarIv]

Well, then I'll mess with the height and report back! :)

And Nkay, I'm aware that BKPs have less output, but such a huge loss compared to the JB isn't normal. So yeah, time to adjust some screws

[GuitarIv]

Little late night experiment:

Don't know how valid this is as I used my Vox Metal Amplug and Headphones, but hightening the HD worked... actually really well. I played around a bit with the screws and from a certain point on not only did the sound become fully saturated but I tried to go over the top and it even became sizzling. Now I found the sweet spot... for the Amplug and Headphones. Will try the same through my Micro Terror (not sure how legit that little thing as a reference point is but oh well my Valveking's still dead) and see how it turns out.

Really unusual for a pickup to be that sensitive to height, at least I haven't experienced something like this with Duncans before. I'm surprised!

[Cpt_Gonzo]

See? What did we say? :D

[GuitarIv]

Yeah, I feel a bit supid right now, I like to overreact :P
However I won't be fully convinced until I try it out with a real Amp ^^

[nkay]

Had a band practice with the new Holy Diver in my MIJ basswood Fender Contemporary Strat, and while it sounded pretty good at home, in the band mix, it actually sounded thin compared to the Dimarzio Super Distortion :( I give up...

I'm starting to think I'm just fighting my wood here. Now that I have a mahogany Les Paul, and an alder Charvel Pro Mod San Dimas, I've really noticed that my basswood Fender is a toneless hunk of wood. The only pickup that really brought it out of its shell was the Dimarzio Super Distortion, and even though that has its faults, I still think overall it has a much fuller sound and better output than the Holy Diver at least for this guitar. No wonder the Super Distortion was used in so many 80's basswood superstrats, it's the only pickup that really jumps all over the poor sound quality of the basswood with a ton of force and output to make it sound better.

I never really noticed the wood issue for so may years as I had recorded direct through a Johnson J-Station (like a POD), and the wood never really came into the equation. Once I got back into tube amps and playing live, I'm realizing the basswood Fender, as awesome as it is to play and such a well constructed instrument, sucks in the tone department. The Holy Diver, while I think a great pickup, is so organic that it lets the natural basswood through and in this case, it's not a good thing. I think I'm going back to the Super D here.

[GuitarIv]

Sucks to hear that :/
However really try to mess with the PU height and don't be too afraid to go really near the srings. I'm just sitting here in my rehearsal room and must report back that adjusting the screws solved the issue. I really had no idea that this is soo important with BKPs, or at least the Holydiver. Now it has enough gain through my Micro Terror boosted with a Tubescreamer and although I admit that the JB still sounds ballsier, there's no hollow weak and lacking sound anymore. Thanks guys and nkay, do as I did, play with the screws! Maybe it helps. I don't think Basswood is a bad wood, at least not if high quality pieces are used. Misha Mansoor for example loves Basswood Bodys on some of his guitars (his Mayones and his Jackson Custom Shop has one if I remember right and he actually requested it) and he couples it with BKPs. No issue for him...

[nkay]

I'll give it a shot, but I did try higher and lower height and it was either too muddy, or not hot enough. I think I just have to face the truth it's just not the right pickup for this particular guitar.

I hate to rag on the basswood, as I know there's a ton of expensive custom guitars like Suhrs that use it, but this particular guitar (has a floating trem too) just sounds soft and lifeless. In comparison, the Les Paul has so much depth, richness, and complexity. I run BKP Cold Sweats in that and it sounds fantastic, I used to use a Super Distortion in there too, but the Cold Sweats keep the edge and aggression while removing the harshness of the Super D and letting the wood tone speak through.

In the basswood Fender, the Super D just gave it lots of balls, aggression, and heaviness that it didn't have on its own. I just wanted to try something different with the BKP and find something a bit warmer and less harsh while still in the ballpark tone-wise which is why I tried the Holy Diver. I might try the Cold Sweat here too when I get a chance, but I think in the end I might go back to the Super D.

My superstrats are my "metal" guitars for shredding, while the Les Paul I use for more hard rock/classic rock.

[Cpt_Gonzo]

Try lowering the pickup but raising the polepieces. That might help!

[TheyCallMeVolume]

Really unusual for a pickup to be that sensitive to height

That's a BKP for ya!