Thoughts on vintage guitars vs boutique guitars

[Oli]

So I often sit down of an evening and whilst watching Mad Men (or often Traffic Cops!), and I consider guitar purchases.

Now I have had a custom guitar before, and I'm reluctant to go down that route again, but there are a number of boutique builders who offer standard models which are somewhat limited/ custom. However, if I'm going to be dropping £1000-2500 on an instrument, I would like it to be a wise choice, and one that will not be worth a lot less in years to come. Now this is a potential issue with boutique guitars- is a Tyler still going to be worth 2k in 5 years, or 10 years time? Hard to tell, and I'm thinking that it may be a risky choice, just due to the niche appeal.

I'll just say now, that I'm not just looking for a guitar that is going to be worth money, and indeed, I'm certainly not really in the bracket of people that can afford the 'desireable' instruments that are the big bucks. I am looking for an instrument that will be played, but hopefully I won't lose a considerable amount, and something that will be 'worth' something, and be an interesting thing to have.

Which brings me to the flip side- 'vintage' instruments. From what I gather at the moment, the market is in a bit of a strange state, where prices are being held a bit high, but I may be wrong on that. However, I would like to consider this part of the market- a nice Tele, strat or LP would be something that I would like to own and play. Now, considering my budget (that can be extended with time), obviously I'm not in the realm of the '56 strat, but I'm not really sure what are the interesting instruments to look at.

So in my situation, what instruments would you be looking at? And do you think the bar of the vintage instrument will keep changing-- will it only be 50s and 60s fenders be the vintage ones, or will 70s be commanding more in 10 or 20 years time?

That's not even considering amplifiers!

[Twinfan]

If you want to maximise resale:

* buy used
* buy a popular brand
* buy a popular model from said popular brand

You won't go wrong with a 70s LP/Strat/Tele if you want to go vintage.  If you want to go more modern, go for a used Custom Shop LP/Strat/Tele.  I'd go for a CS "something" every time.

[Andrew W]

I agree with everything Twinfan said.

The trouble I have with most vintage instruments is that the collector end of the market (as opposed to the player end) has pushed up prices on instruments of very questionable quality. I was born in 1975 and have often fancied a guitar from that year. Over the years I've tried several Strats and Teles from '75 and they have all been horrible: really really poor quality. These days they will cost you nearly a couple of grand, which is preposterous. Collectors only care about year, desirability (did someone famous play one), and condition of an instrument and as late '60s (well into the CBS era) Fenders became unaffordable so the prices on early '70s guitars crept up and we're now at a point where mid to late '70s Fenders cost as much as a current, new, Custom Shop instrument. That's barmy, if you actually want to play the thing.

The only vintage instrument I own is a refinished '64 Epiphone Wilshire, a great guitar but not associated with any of the "legends of guitar"  and hence of more limited interest to collectors. I reckon I could sell, if I could find a buyer in the current market, for what I paid for it. Probably.

I also recently bought a second hand PRS DGT, another fantastic interest. I paid less than half new price on a guitar that was barely 12 months old and was in as new condition. So I'd really suggest not buying any thing new, as Twinfan said.

[darkbluemurder]

I'd go for used boutique. Given the current economy they seem difficult to move for their owners. Used PRSi can be had between EUR 1,300 and 1,600 for a CE22 or similar model. Recently there was a Grosh Retro Classic for EUR 1,550 on Ebay which did not move. Same for a Suhr Pro S2 for EUR 1,400.

Cheers Stephan

[darkbluemurder]

On "vintage" I may add that the definition of this term becomes broader all the time. As for the real valuable stuff - that would almost take a lawyer to conclude the sale to make sure that the item is authentic and legit. And then you probably would not want to take it anywhere out. As regards "vintage" I would look either for instruments that for whatever reason did not become collectors items or which have been modified and lost some of the collectors value.

Cheers Stephan

[richard]

In 40 years time will people being looking at today's guitars as vintage instruments ?  I thought 'vintage' would always be the '59 Les Paul, the '57 Strat etc. The 70s was a bad manufacturing period for both Fender and Gibson but now those guitars go for ridiculous prices.  If I had the cash I'd go for a Feline or similar and get something that is exactly what I want. A 70s Strat will probably continue to increase in value but you could be stuck with playing a really bad guitar.

[Philly Q]

Isn't there some kind of semi-official definition now, of "vintage" being anything over 30 years old?  No idea who came up with that, if it's true.

I think some of today's guitars will be considered vintage in 40 years time, and they'll deserve it more than a lot of those '70s guitars do!

I always find it strange when I think that '59 Les Pauls and '57 Strats were already considered the Holy Grails when I started playing - at which point those guitars were less than 25 years old!  Nothing really changes in the world of guitar, does it?  It's nice that they don't have built-in obsolescence like phones, TVs etc.

[TheyCallMeVolume]

If you want vintage and you want a player, a Les Paul Junior is perfect. Those guitars can handle anything you throw at them, they're total workhorses and they are very undervalued right now.

I won't tell you to go against the boutique route either. What exactly do you mean by boutique? Like a special edition or custom shop guitar from bigger companies like Gibson, PRS, Fender, etc. or do you mean a custom build from a luthier?

[Philly Q]

It's true, Juniors are (relatively) very cheap for genuine vintage guitars.  Not quite cheap enough to tempt me into buying one (....yet)

[FELINEGUITARS]

I'm in favour of buying he guitar that sounds and plays great and makes you want to play. Buy the one you'll love and never want to part with, no matter what.

I'd say buy local (buy British) and support those skilled dedicated guys , so that they will become the cherished brands of tomorrow.

I think the vintage market is over-inflated by collectors rather than players, and recently prices are such that you might find it not to be so much of an investment.

[dave_mc]

If you want to maximise resale:

* buy used
* buy a popular brand
* buy a popular model from said popular brand

that's probably sound advice. if i were buying based on resale etc. that's what i'd do.

that being said, trying to forecast what will happen in 10-20 years' time is incredibly difficult. and it's also debatable if buying something solely because of resale value is a good idea, because if you don't like the thing you're just increasing your chances of having to sell it.

i realise that's no help but at least it's pretty much the truth. guitar playing is a hobby, and like any other hobby, to do it right costs money. if you go in trying never to lose any money you could lose all the fun of it. That's not to say you should pay no attention to cost or be profligate or anything like that, but there's probably a happy medium where you're not being ripped off but not counting every penny either.

[gwEm]

I love the mojo of vintage instruments and am enthusiastic about that option.. but custom guitars can explore something that was never offered by the mainstream.

A large number of 70s and 80s Fender and Gibson instruments are surely in your price range.

The problem is that these are considered as a more "dodgy" period for both manufacturers - they still made some lovely instruments, but its well worth trying them out first. The guitars can be very heavy, and sometimes with poor neck fitting in the case of Fender.

The criteria we look at as players is different from the ones collectors look at, but generally as you point out its hard to lose money on a vintage guitar unless you buy a lemon. Some modded/repaired guitars might reduce the "vintage" value, but be fine as players.

For example: my number one is an early 80s Gibson V, not loved by collectors since it doesn't use the "right" woods - alder/maple, but it sounds great and I love the way it plays. It cost me just under a grand when I got it, I've gigged it, and now its worth probably at or just above a grand.

You might still be able to get a 60s guitar in the budget - something like a Fender Musicmaster for example.

Basically, choose a couple of models your interested in, spend a few hours on the internet doing research to know what the spec should be, try it out. Ebay and Gbase are good sites to sus out values.

edit: I think guitars made in the 90s are at their lowest 2ndhand value, they'll start to creep up again in a few years. They made some cool Les Paul studios in the 90s, some of which have full thickness bodies - one of the many options worth looking at perhaps.

[gwEm]

I was born in 1975 and have often fancied a guitar from that year. Over the years I've tried several Strats and Teles from '75 and they have all been horrible: really really poor quality. These days they will cost you nearly a couple of grand, which is preposterous. Collectors only care about year, desirability (did someone famous play one), and condition of an instrument and as late '60s (well into the CBS era) Fenders became unaffordable so the prices on early '70s guitars crept up and we're now at a point where mid to late '70s Fenders cost as much as a current, new, Custom Shop instrument. That's barmy, if you actually want to play the thing.

I've often thought the same about those 70s strats. For every good one there seems to be a handful of bad ones. In terms of playing it now, today, a modern USA or Japanese Fender would be far easier to buy blind.

I find with 70s Gibsons its easier to find a nice one. Having said that, some of them were pretty ropey in the late 70s too.

[Philly Q]

^
Having started reading guitar magazines around 1981, when Japanese guitars were staring to gain respect and some small US companies like Hamer, Dean and BC Rich were emerging, I grew up with the "received wisdom" that the vast majority of '70s Fenders and Gibsons were utter cack.  Whether this is true or not - and I think it certainly has some basis in fact! - I've never quite been able to get used to the idea that those '70s guitars are now "vintage" and command high prices!

if I'm going to be dropping £1000-2500 on an instrument, I would like it to be a wise choice, and one that will not be worth a lot less in years to come. Now this is a potential issue with boutique guitars- is a Tyler still going to be worth 2k in 5 years, or 10 years time? Hard to tell, and I'm thinking that it may be a risky choice, just due to the niche appeal.

Taking it away from the vintage discussion for a moment, I can't claim to know much about the boutique market but when I sold my Tyler it was one of the very few times I've sold a guitar for basically the same as I paid for it.

I get the impression things like Suhr, Anderson and Huber also hold their value well.  I don't think the same is true of smaller boutique makers, if they're not sufficiently well-known the resale value seems to drop pretty sharply.  Of course we don't know how any of these guitars will be regarded in years to come....

[Ian Price]

The trouble I have with most vintage instruments is that the collector end of the market (as opposed to the player end) has pushed up prices on instruments of very questionable quality. I was born in 1975 and have often fancied a guitar from that year. Over the years I've tried several Strats and Teles from '75 and they have all been horrible: really really poor quality. These days they will cost you nearly a couple of grand, which is preposterous. Collectors only care about year, desirability (did someone famous play one), and condition of an instrument and as late '60s (well into the CBS era) Fenders became unaffordable so the prices on early '70s guitars crept up and we're now at a point where mid to late '70s Fenders cost as much as a current, new, Custom Shop instrument. That's barmy, if you actually want to play the thing.

Yep, agreed with this. I once had a 1975 Tele (I was also born in this great year). It was okayish but was priced higher than most Fender CS models (apart from the masterbuilt, teambuilt and limited edition). Completely insane considering the build quality comparison. The 75 had a fairly thick finish on it and some very strange misalignment on the string ferrules. Nothing that affected playability really, just stupid to pay more for an 'old' instrument than it is to buy a top notch new or second hand custom shop model.