'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.

[Johnny Mac]

I might add, contradicting myself above, that the best playing guitar I have ever played was Johnny Mac's Feline.

Thanks mate :-) I feel that way about it too. I knew it was going to be just right and it had more of that something than I ever thought possible

[dave_mc]

The discussion of amps takes us back to the beginning of this discussion - which is that of all the hyper expensive amps played in the Guitarist blind test, high up in their favourites was the Fender Hot Rod - an amp that probably would only get derogatory comments from the majority of people here.

For what type of tones, though? I've always said its cleans were very good (especially for the price), just its od channels were rubbish (though I haven't tried the new one which supposedly has improved the od channels a little).

The Hot Rod's are a good cheap option if you're playing the clean channel, as the Guitarist guys were.

Try the gain channel though, especially at low volume - it's not that great.  Very buzzy and flat like a bad distortion pedal.

ah there we go. agreed. :)

I'd say the same applies to both guitars and amps - you need to be a decent enough guitar player to appreciate the differences.  If someone very badly hacks Smoke On The Water through a Trainwreck they're not going to be blown away by the amp are they?

What I find kinda weird though is that that kinda goes both ways. On the one hand what you're saying is true- but on the other hand, the better a player you are, the more you can put up with less than ideal kit. The longer I've been playing (I'm making the possibly inaccurate assumption that I've been improving over time :lol: ), the less fussy I find I get about gear. Things that I'd have sworn blind made a massive difference 5 years ago now I often think make a subtle difference at best.

That's not to say that I think that if you're a good player that you should play cr@ppy gear (which some people suggest). That's silly as well. The same player will generally play and sound better through better kit (assuming the better kit suits the player's preferences and music style(s) equally well), so you might as well play the best stuff you can afford. Just it's not always a massive difference, either, diminishing returns come into play...

[Elliot]

The point about the Guitarist test is not that the clean tones of the Hot Rod were 'very good (especially for the price)' or 'a good cheap option' (both statements I can imagine being said with upturned noses - if I didn't know you both from here for years  :D) but were preferred to the clean tones of amps costing 5 times the price in a blind test.  The Hot Rod sounded boutique, the boutique amps didn't - and that to the ears of professional musicians.  Now, I must confess I have never played a Hot Rod Deluxe, although I know the Blackface tone it based on - but if people who play and review guitars and amps for a living think by their ears alone  that amp is the booteek amp, then, unless posh amp builders don't bother with their clean sound (which is hard to imagine), they aren't doing it right and thus the Ģ$$$$ĢĢ$Ģ is questionable.

It is interesting to note that the same magazine compared a Joyo UD with Fulltone OCD and came out the other end - stating that anyone with pro-musician ears could tell the difference. 

 

[Philly Q]

It is interesting to note that the same magazine compared a Joyo UD with Fulltone OCD and came out the other end - stating that anyone with pro-musician ears could tell the difference. 

Was that a "blind" test, though?  I remember the article, but skipped over it.

[Afghan Dave]

Funny enough, I've been wanting a Joyo US Dream because I've always wanted a Suhr Riot.. Should I?

Any other Joyos worth buying too?

[Elliot]

I don't think the Joyo vs Fulltone was a blind test.

Dave - here's a side by side of the two pedals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyAOYu1OxpE

[gordiji]

 I prefered amp 'Y', though there's not much in it. Which is which out of interest?

[Twinfan]

The point about the Guitarist test is not that the clean tones of the Hot Rod were 'very good (especially for the price)' or 'a good cheap option' (both statements I can imagine being said with upturned noses - if I didn't know you both from here for years  :D) but were preferred to the clean tones of amps costing 5 times the price in a blind test.

That's not quite true Elliot?  From memory, Mick Taylor guessed what 3 of the amps were (and got it right) but I'm not sure he said the Hot Rod was his favourite?  He said he knew it because he'd played one a lot...

[tekbow]

Good point Twinfan. How many people here have read the article and aren't just going off the discussion here for their info.

The Test wasn't cut and dry on the side of boutique, The HR crept in their a few times, but neither did it destroy (or even come close to) the (misunderstood) concept of "Boutique" (a word i'm starting to hate).

Pretty sure if i loved Marshall and only played them all my life, i'm going to pick it out as my fav in a blind test. whole point of boutique is having something tweaked in a direction that you just can't find on the market stock. Boutique is there for when the standard stuff isn't quite for you. And when you have a lot of optional mods or tweaks people ask you to make, i would imagine the one at a time construction methods make more sense than commiting to large runs of components. that costs more. depends what that 5% difference is worth to you

[Dmoney]

And when you have a lot of optional mods or tweaks people ask you to make, i would imagine the one at a time construction methods make more sense than commiting to large runs of components. that costs more. depends what that 5% difference is worth to you

If people always ask for mods then it's going to be easier to make stuff a bit more bespoke, although to be fair if you were running a small company it's probably worth building a few amps at the same time, since that will give you stock exponentially faster than doing one amp after another in a consecutive process. Building 3 amps at once by hand is faster than building 3 one after the other (is what I'm getting at) and therefore uses time more efficiently. Being able to commit to larger orders of parts is actually good thing, it makes the parts cheaper since higher quantities get you better price breaks and that makes the cost per part cheaper, so you can make more profit. You could also stock certain parts and sell them to other people for projects/spares to make profit on the side since some parts may have minimum orders of 500 for example but may be desirable to others not in a position to buy that many.

[Kiichi]

This customisation and amp talks makes me thing two things right now:
a) I want Dmoney to build me on of those SLO clones =)
b) I want someone to build me high quality Tiny Terror clone with a 3 band EQ and a effects loop.

Especially the second one would basecally be boutique, as it custom and small number. This just now made me really notice how much I like boutique stuff when it is not snake oil stuff.
Lot of people are satisfied with off the shelf things and yes those can be amazing.
I however am someone who likes to optimize (I also do sound tech work on the side). I love things with a lot of knobs, possibilities, etc.
I am someone who pays that extra money to get that extra 10-5%, things like a effects loop on a TT.

I also am one for feel and such but I think the problem with boutique comes in where the snake oil starts. That is a blurry line, I admit, but that line is what this discussion really comes down to, isnīt it?
I think no one is gonna talk badly about custom and boutique work in general, only about snake oil, or am I off on that assumption?

[Dmoney]

Does the OR15H not take your fancy? The tone control in the Tiny Terror is a cross line 'hi cut' which you can find on old vox's and some Komet amps. It's a 'low loss' tone control and given that the amp is pretty minimalist for the tone you get out of it, it probably made sense to not have something like a Marshall tone stack which is high impedance stuck in the middle of the preamp. There are other interesting options for similar kinds of tone controls. They aren't that commonly used but I think they are cool. I'm yet to experiment with them. They pop up in things like Garnet amps and assorted retro stuff.

The Jim Root terror has a 3 band EQ and a Loop. Not sure how the circuit compares to a standard TT but a peak at one of those would be interesting to see what choices Orange made when adding those features and to see just how much they differ from a standard TT.

[Kiichi]

Does the OR15H not take your fancy? The tone control in the Tiny Terror is a cross line 'hi cut' which you can find on old vox's and some Komet amps. It's a 'low loss' tone control and given that the amp is pretty minimalist for the tone you get out of it, it probably made sense to not have something like a Marshall tone stack which is high impedance stuck in the middle of the preamp. There are other interesting options for similar kinds of tone controls. They aren't that commonly used but I think they are cool. I'm yet to experiment with them. They pop up in things like Garnet amps and assorted retro stuff.

The Jim Root terror has a 3 band EQ and a Loop. Not sure how the circuit compares to a standard TT but a peak at one of those would be interesting to see what choices Orange made when adding those features and to see just how much they differ from a standard TT.

Actually had not heard of the OR15H. A quick glance makes it sure look tasty. Just gotta wonder how different the tone is from the TT. If it was the same it would be all I wanted. Will certainly do more research on that one.

The JR Terror is also something on my lift I want to give another try some time and maybe even get one. Once tried it in a store and was very impressed. I think with the TT and the JRT one is more of the Thunderverb voicing and one more the Rockeverb. I think the TT is the Thunder if I recall, but donīt quote me on that.
The JRT certainly strongly reminded me of the Stone Sour tone. Had a classic Orange feel, with great blues rock qualitys and amazing metal.
Canīt really tell how they compare exactly, but I think they were different enough for me to be able to have both.
Maybe the JRT was a little less dense and had the growl in a little higher frequency range while having generally more lows and highs and not being as middy as the TT. Long time ago...

Also you make me wonder how one could mod the tone controll on my TT...thought it being a hardwire version I would hesitate to do more mods than chaning the tubes...which I did.

Btw I do not regret exchanging my old china TT for the british hardwire. Saw them both in the shop and asked to do a blind test. Of course I got diminishing returns in terms of price, but the HW TT has more of the good things of the TT. Feels and sounds more alive. Also seems to have lower noise. I think this comes down to be the components being higher quality and lower tollerance. Effectivly it was a TT which has woken up. Not by a mile, but it was that step from a good amp to a great amp. Like going from a video of a pretty girl to the real thing. Extra dimension and that air they carry you just canīt get one video.
Hope you know what I am getting at.
Itīs a lot of feel, but also a lot of tone.
Itīs also the little things that bring me joy. The knobs on the TT were cheap china ones, the HW TT has double pots which move much more precise and smoother.

[Elliot]

Dave - you are right about Mick Taylor, but from memory he was the only one who could discern what was what.   The others (iirc) put the clean from the HRD in the booteek category.  In saying that, I might be misremembering and it is a testament to the decline of Guitarist that I used to keep them, but now I chuck them away after scanning Neville Martin's page - so I can't go and check.

[Twinfan]

I think you're right Elliot, but what the blind test really told me was that the 3 Monkeys and the Morgan weren't that great.  I wonder why they chose them instead of a Lazy J/Friedman/Divided by 13 etc?  Why choose complete unknowns, small companies who could be cobbling anything together?

I'm guessing it's due to availability of what they could test, which again says to me they're not that great as they're not selling...