'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.

[Lew]

Gonna be a longish rant 'cause I'm at a loose end this afternoon... :lol:

In the latest issue of Guitarist (I know, I only subbed for the free pedalboard) they blind tested a bunch of boutique amps and (from memory) most couldn't tell the difference between a HotRod Deluxe and a 3monkeys amp and it got me thinking.

I'm interested in peoples take on it all 'cause up to a few years ago I honestly really did buy into it all (mostly, I suppose from a lack of actual knowledge) but these days, not so much and the cost is getting out of hand. I'll preface this by admitting I'm a gearsnob. The cost of production gear keeps going up which I'm sure is partly thanks to the shiteeety economy and how hard wood is getting to source but also, I think it's being done to match the boutique market which in turn keeps going up to separate themselves as a superior instrument.

I think we have the big names to blame for the 'boutique' market (I even hate the word boutique) being what it is and even existing. Gibson when it comes to setneck guitars because the QC on non customshops has been abysmal and have gone hand in hand with price hikes and no, this isn't something I've read on the internet it's been from hands on experience, bad binding, splintered wood where the tailpieces screw in, excess glue on inlays etc etc. I mean a new Gibson VOS LesPaul is close to £4k and in my opinion all of those features and quality should be on a standard model for around or close to 2k. Why isn't it?

I think PRS are alot closer to getting it right with a custom24 costing around 2.3k (still a few hundred too much imo). But why do people pay 7k for a private stock or £8k for whatever 'tribute' Lespaul du jour is on offer. World guitars is 15mins down the road from me and they actually have £14k PRS collection guitars that sound and play like a well set-up custom24 or DGT. Who the $%&# is buying these? It sure as shite aint working musicians. I think those prices should only exist in the vintage market and to me it seems like nothing more than a pissing contest. And then you get the uber boutique market, £5k for a Huber lespaul,£4k for a Hartung lespaul, when you compare the prices to a VOSGibson the pricing seems fair.

I remember getting a private message from a rep of the american website DestroyAllGuitars on the gear page once when I was talking about Fibenare who blatantly told me to stop telling people how much they cost in the UK/Europe (because they clearly had them listed on their website at a massive markup), it was both disturbing and an eye-opener as to how these things can work.

I know quality costs and I don't want to confuse my take of boutique with the small independent builders like Feline, Jaydee, Sabre, Daemoness who I think have really fair pricing. My Daemoness was just over 2k and it pretty much destroys everything I've played (also the reason I haven't bought a guitar in over two years).

Same deal with amps, you can get a vintage british amp like Roost, Carlboro, Laney, Selmer, Soundshitey for stupidly low money. It's only really certain Hiwatts and Marshalls that have an inflated price. And these amps are total $%&#ing beasts and are 'handwired' (another buzz word that pisses me off). Have Partridge's, point to point or turretboard, chasis mounted valve-sockets etc etc... all things that are used as a huge markup and buzzwords to inflate the cost. Any british amp pre 1975 is about as 'boutique' as it gets.

Anyway, I think I'm done for now  8)

[dvorak]

Twinfan buys them :D

Personally I see it as a good thing that there are options and good supply out there. There are great instruments to be had in all price levels today, from £500-10000. Get what suits you best.

Apparently there is a market for really high end stuff, and what's so bad with that? It's the market that creates the different levels, and to me that's a good thing. It makes it possible for everyone to be able to buy stuff they want.

[gwEm]

at the end of the day its all sound I think. if it sounds good, then it is good! the boutique stuff can help achieve this in a more reliable way i think, but a mid-range squier into a ratty practice amp can work perfectly well.

[Lew]

But that's my point, I think there's a market for the stuff because the big names have let standards drop on 'standard' equipment and charged through the roof for the premium gear thus making a big ass gap in the market, particularly around the 5k point. Look at early 90s Lespauls when Gibson were bought out, great great guitars and back then a standard was £1300 odd? what would you have to pay to get the equivalent quality from Gibbo now? You can't honestly tell me a 14k PRS is more reliable than a 2.3k custom24 tonewise or buildwise ;-p

[Dave Sloven]

I personally think that for gigging a lot of gear is simply overkill, especially high-end guitars with nice finishes.  Stuff gets trashed from gigging.  Much better to have a cheap Epi SG with BKPs and some decent hardware on it that you can swap into another $300 guitar if that one gets broken than have the $10,000 Pete Townsend Custom Shop SG that most people in the audience would be hard pressed to pick (besides the few gear heads that turn up).  High-end gear has a place: in the studio. There you can bring out the nuances of nice equipment.  Even then the $$ need to be justified by the sound, IMHO.

This is the case at least in the genres I'm into, where most people either have earplugs in or are already deaf due to loud volumes in gig venues

[Philly Q]

This could be an interesting discussion!  :D

I have lots of thoughts, but no time at the moment to try to make sense of them..... I'll just say let's hope Twinfan contributes.  :lol:

Oh, and:

I remember getting a private message from a rep of the american website DestroyAllGuitars on the gear page once when I was talking about Fibenare who blatantly told me to stop telling people how much they cost in the UK/Europe (because they clearly had them listed on their website at a massive markup), it was both disturbing and an eye-opener as to how these things can work.

I was genuinely shocked by that.  Bloody cheek!

[Lew]

Let me see if I can remember my gear page details and see if it's still in my inbox. edit: bah, deleted it  :(

That's probably what it comes down to Agent. I can't exactly see myself getting a private stock putting it in drop G and playing Sleep riffs  :lol: not that I could afford it even if I wanted it.

[JDC]

If someone wants to pay £14K for a guitar, someone else will find a way to sell them a £14K guitar

Personally I think spending more than £2K is a waste since you can get an amazing guitar built to your specs so long as you don't go crazy with the options

[Elliot]

It wasn't that most couldn't tell the difference between a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe and a Three Monkey's amp - its that they thought the Fender was better sounding.  I have no problem with that as I think Fender amps are the best sounding amps (especially the 63 Vibroverb), but it should come as no surprise that the Guitarist staff, many of whom who are studio musicians, are instinctively attuned to the Fender sound as it is very often 'the' studio sound. 

I am become less and less of a guitar snob.  Of my guitars my favourites are a Baja telecaster built in Mexico and an American Standard strat - my Custom shop 59 Les Paul is shamefully in its case - really I should sell it. 

I also did a shoot out of my OD pedals between from the expensive to the Joyo - and my favourite was the Digitech Bad Monkey.  That cured me pretty much of gear snobbery (still want the whole Effectrode range of valve pedals though....)

Bottom line - if you like to spend your money on gear, then that is your choice - but that is often different from an objective approach to something.

[gwEm]

But that's my point, I think there's a market for the stuff because the big names have let standards drop on 'standard' equipment and charged through the roof for the premium gear thus making a big ass gap in the market, particularly around the 5k point. Look at early 90s Lespauls when Gibson were bought out, great great guitars and back then a standard was £1300 odd? what would you have to pay to get the equivalent quality from Gibbo now? You can't honestly tell me a 14k PRS is more reliable than a 2.3k custom24 tonewise or buildwise ;-p

well, equally, if you like having nice things and don't mind to spend for the very best, then no reason why not if it inspires you or makes you happy.

i fully agree, the price vs performance at the top of the market is disproportionate to the lower part.. but no reason to rant about it ;)

[Dmoney]

I essentially agree with Gwem's original point.

I've also built amplifiers for one of the people involved in that boutique amp test.

I'm thinking amps here, not guitars...
Big companies are out for profit which means reducing design costs, parts costs, and construction costs to a minimum. Which impacts the end product in various ways.
Vintage gear corksniffers drive up the cost and of obsolete parts thus making boutique amps made with NOS parts expensive compared to the same amp made with modern parts although how different the amps would sound would be subjective.
PCB, Eyelet and Turret construction doesn't really sound different if they are all laid out well. The main differences are how much work it is to build an amp using turrets vs PCB (hand populated PCB as well!). I've done both, so I know. PCB's in amps can be just as robust as turrets. Both can also be junk. Guitar amps probably don't need to be built to the exact same standard are Space Shuttles but I think people have trouble recognising nicely laid out and well designed amps if they haven't had to work on them.
HiFi corksniffers drive up the cost of amps too. That world where hifi crosses into guitar amps is a bit mental. Shock absorber mounted preamp boards, hand made coupling caps, gold plate leaded resistors.
Paying your workforce (or yourself) a fair wage rather than a team of chinese people next to nothing will factor in too if you build the amps as your main job.
and then 'Supply and Demand' can drive up a price. If youre the only person making something that people really want but you can only make a few units a year then at some point you're going to consider putting the price up to see what people are willing to pay? It's how markets work right?

[Philly Q]

It wasn't that most couldn't tell the difference between a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe and a Three Monkey's amp - its that they thought the Fender was better sounding.  I have no problem with that as I think Fender amps are the best sounding amps (especially the 63 Vibroverb), but it should come as no surprise that the Guitarist staff, many of whom who are studio musicians, are instinctively attuned to the Fender sound as it is very often 'the' studio sound. 

It was quite interesting in that amp shootout that not only did they prefer the "cheap" Fender to some of the boutique amps, but that their attempts to guess which amp was which were way off the mark in some cases.

If it was me, of course, I'd have had absolutely no idea, but it was fascinating to see that the "pros" (or at least semi-pros) didn't actually fare much better.

I guess they were probably quite embarrassed, but I thought it was brave of them to have a go.

[Philly Q]

Personally I think spending more than £2K is a waste since you can get an amazing guitar built to your specs so long as you don't go crazy with the options

I don't want to derail the discussion into "custom vs off-the-shelf", but I think the difference is that you can pick up an off-the-shelf guitar and you know straight away if it has "that certain something", whereas you could specify every last detail of a custom guitar, wait for it to be built, everything could be perfect.... but you can't guarantee that "something" will be there.

I know custom builders will say you can predict results with knowledgeable selection of timber etc, and I respect their opinions as well as their skills.... but I'm not 100% convinced.  Sorry!

[Afghan Dave]

I think the true measure of a guitar/amps value can only be found in the second hand market.

If you want to sell your Private Stock don't fool yourself into thinking it is "worth" more than £300 if that's the best offer on the table in an open market.

It's only ever "worth" what someone will pay.

[richard]

I heard someone trying out a Hotrod III in a shop recently and thought it sounded great. I had a play on the first series a few years back and thought it was okay for clean but had horrible overdrive channels. They really have improved a lot. I hear that they're not the best put together amps and maybe this is what you pay your extra cash for.

My own gear is:

Firebird Studio, second hand £625.

RY pups - £230 I think.

Cornford Roadhouse combo - about £700 new 5 years ago.

I'm really happy with my gear and I don't think spending thousands would make me any happier. See my post about the JCM 900, I got a GREAT sound out of a rather unpopular amp.

I'm not knocking guys like Feline for example because they'll build you a guitar to your specs for not a whole lot of cash but I'm okay with off the shelf stuff. If I was to get a new back up guitar my first consideration would be - will it sound good with RYs in it ?