Username: Password:

Author Topic: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.  (Read 49237 times)

Alex

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 2004
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #135 on: July 22, 2013, 09:04:35 AM »
We should do a BKP meeting and do a BKP blind test ("guess the pickup!").
Current BKPs: Miracle Man, Nailbomb, Juggernaut, VHII
Past BKPS: Holy Diver, Trilogy Suite, Sinner, Black Dog

keith

  • Featherweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 460
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #136 on: July 22, 2013, 09:41:24 AM »
Well...i've enjoyed this thread so far :D. As for myself I own a Gibson LP Standard(2000) and I also have PRS SE Bernie Marsden which was not an expensive purchase but on the whole a very nice playing,sounding guitar to me anyway, which I play through an Orange Dual Terror and a 2x12 Zilla cabinet and all of this does the job well for me. I for one could not afford some of the stuff being talked about here and I don't for one moment blame anyone at all who spends that amount of money on things...it's up to the individual and good luck to them if they can afford those things. I would love to have a Kossoff,Beast,or a Sandy from the collectors choice and then again I would love one of the Feline 12 but sadly they are out of reach....well I can dream :D. Anyway good debate chaps :D
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 09:43:23 AM by keith »
Gibson 2000 Honeyburst Standard/10th Anniversaries
Bernie Marsden PRS SE/Miss.Queen/Mule.
Orange Dual Terror Head
Zilla 2x12 cab

Philly Q

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 18109
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #137 on: July 22, 2013, 11:43:19 AM »
We should do a BKP meeting and do a BKP blind test ("guess the pickup!").

That would be a brave thing to do, but the results could be interesting.

Of course it would depend on other factors like type of guitar, amp, speakers etc and the players' familiarity with said factors (......blah, blah, blah..... ad infinitum)
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

Alex

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 2004
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #138 on: July 22, 2013, 12:30:08 PM »
We should do a BKP meeting and do a BKP blind test ("guess the pickup!").

That would be a brave thing to do, but the results could be interesting.

Of course it would depend on other factors like type of guitar, amp, speakers etc and the players' familiarity with said factors (......blah, blah, blah..... ad infinitum)

But imagine how it could revise your views of some of the pickups in the range? It would also help me to get a better grip on how much the guitar construction factors, etc.
Current BKPs: Miracle Man, Nailbomb, Juggernaut, VHII
Past BKPS: Holy Diver, Trilogy Suite, Sinner, Black Dog

Philly Q

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 18109
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #139 on: July 22, 2013, 01:19:32 PM »
But imagine how it could revise your views of some of the pickups in the range? It would also help me to get a better grip on how much the guitar construction factors, etc.

That's a good point, I might find I actually liked some of the ones I tend to dismiss as "not my kind of thing", like the Nailbomb, HD or the highest-output models.
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

dave_mc

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 9796
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #140 on: July 22, 2013, 03:49:58 PM »
That is going way beyond the original idea!  If you start refinishing, changing hardware etc you're almost getting to the point where all you're actually "blind testing" is the difference between two bits of wood.  :lol:

Oh yeah, I mean I was basically saying the entire thing is virtually pointless, as you're almost into trigger's broom type silliness. :lol:

FELINEGUITARS

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6609
  • London & Southeast's Number 1 BKP stockist
    • http://www.felineguitars.com
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #141 on: July 23, 2013, 12:02:48 AM »
If only someone would build 12* identical spec guitars and put a different set of BKPs in each

https://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=28587.msg384828#new

We're kind of just waiting on paintshop now and we can have them all completed
Sadly in a way as soon as they get done the new owners will want to have them in their eager hands - (although I must get a group photo)
Dont know if we could ever get a meaningful shootout of the pickups.
From memory
#1 had Abraxas (sold)
#2 had Emeralds
#3 had Black Dogs
#4 had Crawlers (sold)
#5 had VH2s
#6 had Stormy Mondays (sold)
#7 had Mules (sold) - Phil King)
#8 had PG Blues (sold)
#9 had Cold Sweat (mine)
#10 had Mules
#11 had Rebel Yells (sold)
#12 had Riff Raffs
#13Southpaw had Abraxas

* we made 13 as one wasn't going to be sold to the public but kept by myself for posterity so still leaving 12 to be sold.
Once we get the paintshop bit done I'll do a "Hall of Flame" posting

Anyway - back to boutique ranting (although my guitars do count as boutique)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 12:15:20 AM by FELINEGUITARS »
www.felineguitars.com - repairs & custom built
Great fretwork!
Buy your BKPs & Earvana from ME!

Kiichi

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 2492
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #142 on: July 23, 2013, 12:02:41 PM »
I do agree with MDV that often we are influenced by brand names and such and I do find that true for myself as well, though I believe I am much more resistant to it than most people (yes my ego wants out here).
For example when I went looking for an acoustic guitar I wanted to try everything, also Martins, which I had never played before but in my mind were like some kind of holy grail of acoustic guitars. Then I went to try some...god I hated them instantly, to me they all sounded bad. Yeah, they were loud, but sounded cheap, often britle...hated them. Setup was cool, playability too, but no, just no.
Actually I seem to not get on with 90% of high end acoutic guitars sound whise, dunno why. My favorites seem to sit in the 500-1000 range. In the end I tried everything, even did a double blind test and with that ended up with my Ibanez Satriani Signature Acoustic (the cheaper version even). Beat out anything else in the sound department. Also loved the playing feel as it was more electric. Sure, the octaves are not as clean as I would like em, but it sounded great and since I have improved on the basic character with different strings and bridge pins.

Double blind testing in a music store really is amazingly helpful. Tought me that I hate EMGs...well somewhat. I can dig the sounds they make when listening, but I despise playing them, just canīt work it.

Main thing I learned is that with both low and high end factory guitars it is hit and miss. Sure, usually at the higher end you chances are better, but still we all know the Epiphone LP that sounds and feels so much better than the high end Gibson. So much comes down to woods. The tonal qualitys of each piece used and how those pieces come together makes such a large difference. Thing is that it canīt really be taking into acount with factory guitars, so you end up with a lottery.
Luthiers can work with this and use it, which is why their guitars are so amazing.
That is also the reason why I have no doubt that Twinfans PRS is utterly amazing. Pernambuco is not a snake oil wood in my mind (they use it for violin bows for a reason) and when that is properly picked and combined...man.
Of course hardware, craftsmanship, etc all come into making a guitar too, but those all can be adjusted after the fact to certain degrees and the woods remain at the core.

I love my Feline semihollow I got second hand just as much as my cheap (little over 200 quid) Dean Vendetta 1.7 7 string. The first is just amazingly crafted and just has that mojo. The second is not crafted as well, but the feel still fits nicely and I got very lucky with the woods, they just work great with each other and create and nice character and resonance. So lucky to have both.


You can get great cheap guitars, but you gotta search to find one that works and then do setups, probably exchange hardware, etc.
Or you can get something like a Feline and be sure to always get an amazing piece right from the start.

Plus with the high end range (and especially Luthier made stuff) you can hit the point where everything that makes the guitar melds together in a way I have never experienced on a factory made guitar, where really takes a live of its own, sings as one. Really hard to describe but if you have ever experienced it you know what I mean. Twinfan for example has the same thing with his PRS I think.



Well that was a strange ranty thing. Poorly written, so I feel somewhat sorry for anyone reading it all already. Stream of thought really. sorry^^
BKPs in use: 10th set / RY set / Holy Diver b, Emerald n / Crawler bridge, Slowhand mid MQ neck/ Manhattan n
On the sidelines: Stockholm b / Suppermassive n, Mule n, AM set, IT mid

Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #143 on: July 23, 2013, 12:55:48 PM »
Plus with the high end range (and especially Luthier made stuff) you can hit the point where everything that makes the guitar melds together in a way I have never experienced on a factory made guitar, where really takes a live of its own, sings as one. Really hard to describe but if you have ever experienced it you know what I mean. Twinfan for example has the same thing with his PRS I think.

That's exactly it Kiichi, a mate of mine described my Collection V as "like a harp" as all the strings sang in unison - no bass overpowering the treble, or clashing frequencies, just a sweet, sweet sound.  I've owned over 60 guitars across lots of manufacturers and prices and I've never known a guitar like it.  There's no way you'll get a Korean SE Cu24 (or even a USA PRS) to sound like it by just setting it up and fret dressing it.  It's all to do with the wood selection and construction, making sure all the pieces and fitted together exactly and they work together in harmony.  A 'normal' mass produced instrument will only achieve this very rarely and highly randomly, especially now that factories grade all the raw materials prior to build and rush through manufacture.

dave_mc

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 9796
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #144 on: July 23, 2013, 08:16:24 PM »
A cynic might say that a USA PRS is pretty dear to be considered a "normal" mass produced instrument :lol: I mean for that kind of cash you can get a luthier-built guitar, which does have the kind of wood selection you're talking about. It won't have the PRS signature on the headstock and whether you like it as much is a whole other question, but yeah.

Brow

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 2418
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #145 on: July 23, 2013, 11:52:45 PM »
I've not seen too much (if anything) mentioned in this thread so far about 'Boutique' amps, so just thought I'd bring it up.

I've always been a big believer that the amp is the biggest tone shaping tool in the sound chain: you can have the 'best', most expensive, massively expressive guitar in the world but if you're plugged into a Marshall MG combo (just to pick something as an example, other brands are available) you're not going to be getting the best out of the guitar.

Plug something 'normal' like a Gibson/Fender etc or even lower level like my own modified Indonesian built Hello Kitty Strat into an SLO or Splawn (again other 'better' amp brands are available, I picked what I have for ease) and I'm 100% certain you'd get a better overall end result. Yes the guitar may not play to the standard you like or are used to, which would affect your enjoyment on 1 level, but I don't think anyone here would argue that tonally it wouldn't be better. The overall better tone would also, for me atleast, make up for slight inperfections in the playability of the instrument.

As to what classes as a 'boutique' amp brand I'm not so sure. If you go by price, then over here in the UK MESAs are very expensive, but they are also relatively mass produced. Whereas my Splawn, again just an example, is cheaper but also made in alot smaller numbers.

Then there's the guys that build amp clones etc, of which I know of a few on here. They're often built to very high standards, and also in low numbers, so would you class that as boutique even though they may not cost as much as the amp they're cloning? Again I'll use my own SLO Clone as an example of this.
Selling lots of gear, enquire within!......

Lew

  • Guest
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #146 on: July 23, 2013, 11:53:57 PM »
A cynic might say that a USA PRS is pretty dear to be considered a "normal" mass produced instrument :lol: I mean for that kind of cash you can get a luthier-built guitar, which does have the kind of wood selection you're talking about. It won't have the PRS signature on the headstock and whether you like it as much is a whole other question, but yeah.

Think you have to factor resale into it too. I bet I couldn't shift my custom even if I wanted to 'cause it's so unique to me but a CU24 will keep alot of the value?

Lew

  • Guest
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #147 on: July 24, 2013, 12:01:50 AM »
amps

Yea, I touched on this earlier. The word boutique has come to mean something different, like a mark of quality - that's how I see the word used alot anyway. To me boutique should mean made in a very small quantity (cottage) but at master level but I've seen it used as a justification for high priced production gear.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 12:10:37 AM by Lew »

Brow

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 2418
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #148 on: July 24, 2013, 07:43:28 AM »
amps

Yea, I touched on this earlier. The word boutique has come to mean something different, like a mark of quality - that's how I see the word used alot anyway. To me boutique should mean made in a very small quantity (cottage) but at master level but I've seen it used as a justification for high priced production gear.

I know it had been mentioned a little bit earlier, but nothing to the same amount as guitars. So just thought I'd try and shift the topic a little bit for a change  :lol:
Selling lots of gear, enquire within!......

Dmoney

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 3577
Re: 'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.
« Reply #149 on: July 24, 2013, 08:44:48 AM »
amps

Yea, I touched on this earlier. The word boutique has come to mean something different, like a mark of quality - that's how I see the word used alot anyway. To me boutique should mean made in a very small quantity (cottage) but at master level but I've seen it used as a justification for high priced production gear.

I think its now used as a bit of a buzzword really. It might mean a product from a small company (Splawn, Soldano, JPF, Lazy J, Sommatone etc) but there are loads of small companies making amps. It SHOULD in theory mean a higher quality product with more time paid to each amp and not as much pressure to bean count from managers... but actually people are quite prone to building in legacy "faults" from old amps like poor ground schemes and poor power switching/fusing. In short, I don't think it's easy to guarantee the highest levels of quality in a boutique amp without knowing what you are looking at.

I also think I mentionend elsewhere in this thread the nonsense surrounding NOS resistors or caps driving up the cost of building more vintage accurate amps... this even gets as daft as looking for certain PVC insulated wire in particular colours because the chemicals in the insulation effect the tone. Solid Wire vs Stranded Wire. On the other end of the scale there is the HiFi Influenced amps with all kinds of expensive resistors and caps. Kiwame, Halco, Shinkoh or Audio Note Tantalum resistors. Teflon Tin Foil Capacitors. Basically there are all kinds of companies selling snake oil and it doesn't matter about the price or the quantity of amps they produce and like guitars there is a point where the higher cost isn't really getting you anything more apart from crazy componants and rhetoric. That is what I think.

I've attached two MP3's.
One is an SLO costing over Ģ4k
The other is a well built high spec clone which is probably around Ģ1k (maybe a bit under) but could likely be done cheaper.

Same valves in both amps rebiaed to the same point.
Controls set by measuring the resistances across the pots using a Fluke Multimeter.

Which do you think is which?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 02:08:47 PM by Dmoney »