Really concerned Guitarist is losing touch with reality

[Kiichi]

Add to that Guthrie Govan used to work for the Guitarist family of magazines - and that no-one except widdle stick shred aficionados (who read Guitarist) has ever heard of him.

Well not quite true. Fans of Steven Wilsons solo albums, which are a modern and typically dark attempt at the root idea of prog rock (classic and jazz musicians making pop music, which at that time was rock) the later of which has an especially strong 60s vibe, can also know him. That is where I first heard of him and was very impressed by his playing. That man can put feel into things and work within a band. Brilliant. He played on "The Raven that refused to sing (and other stories)" and tours with Wilson.

Fans of Dizzee Rascal may also have heard of him, although they may not - for the most part - be particularly big guitar fans.

Ok, the last thing I would have expected from you Philly is mentioning someone like Dizzee Rascal (not that I am a fan or even really aquainted with his work myself). You really are full of surprises after all. Cheers to that!

[Philly Q]

I'm not a Dizzee Rascal fan at all, although he does seem to be a bit more interesting musically than a lot of rap/hip hop artists (nothing against that music, it's just not my thing).

I just happened to see Guthrie playing with Dizzee on a Jools Holland show, or something similar.

[tekbow]

Re the original topic of this thread and the discussions about endorsements etc , I notice that the November issue of Guitarist features Guthrie Govan and a review of the new line of Victory amps he is using currently and a plug for his forthcoming Charvel signature guitar , discuss.  :P

The original topic was guitarists definition of affordable ;) however yep i happened to see the Victory amp today on music radar. Clicked on the review, got a few lines in and yes, yet another premium boutique amp.. basically lost interest and stopped reading after that. I just think the markets getting saturated now.. DaveMC will hopefully testify to what i'm about to say, the same thing happened in the boutique pedal market. Everyone and his dog suddenly became a boutique pedal builder, and boutique became equated with pricey and over rated (which isn't necessarily the case at all) There was the minor beginnings of a backlash, then the freekish blues (and a number of other things happened) and there was a major backlash.

What you have left now is a a whole market of confused consumers who don't know whats good, whats a rip off, whats worth having, and are basically just hacked off with the whole thing.

Go to any larger forum with a dedicated effects sub forum, or indeed an purely effects forum, and ask "whats the best OD for...". You'll get a multitude of answers from fanboys, cynics, enthusiasts, everyone basically, and they'll all be different. Also they'll pretty much rubbish every other option mentioned in the case of the fanboys for various mojo reasons.

the Tubescreamer is a case in point. most builders and companies have a version of it now. at the extremes off the market is the Joyo, and the Keeley modded TS.

Said it before.. but.. I have a Keeley modded 808 RI, all the mods, got it back when the prices were still reasonable, second hand so even cheaper actually than a new unmodded 808 from ibanez or maxon. i also have an original TS9 from 84, with all the mojo green dipped resistors and JRC4558D. didn't pay a fortune for that either. I've played a fair number of the clones too.

Now, that keeley pedal with all the mods is the better part of £300 new (guitar guitar) and the cheapest of the ibanez ones is the RI TS9 at about £90. Cheaper again (i think) is the visual sound route 808. The 808 is closest to the keeley with all the mods built in, and is really sturdy for an SMT pedal. And the difference between them is very very subtle, to the point where i'd be suprised if you could pick them apart in a blind test, and certainly not in a live mix. but there's a price difference of nearly £200 quid just between the examples i've named..

thats why people are hacked off.

I stick with what i know these days amp wise, and thats Soldano.. don't see any reason to change that and if it wasn't Soldano, it'd probably be Cornford, or Marshall, or Laney or something similar.. even Lazy J, or the builders here who i know know their stuff. yes, some of those guys are boutique, but the common thread with these guys is they all established themselves before the current explosion on the boutique market, or i know their rep thru word of mouth.

On the subject of Guthries Charvel, am actually suprised he moved away from Suhr, but it's a nice guitar. Not keen on this baked maple fretboard thing though. If i remember rightly he went thru a prototype of it on a guitariist DVD or summat a while back. There were a lot of very refined and specialised tweaks and features on it. Some people might cry mojo, but i can believe that in Guthries case, he plays guitars to their full potential, so refinements for his style and personality are necessary to go beyond that potential. Kinda like 99% of us would love to own a ferrari (or something) but will never get the best out of it because we're just not that good at driving. Guthries a guitar Schumacher. Doubtless a lot of those sales will be people who'll hear about the specs and convince themselves they need one, but will never play that guitar to its full potential.

I prefer the music zoo charvels myself (natural series) which certainly look to be what the guthrie model was partly inspired by..

to be honest I'd be happy with a current pro mod charvel if it wasn't for those sodding backrouted floyds..

[Dmoney]

What you have left now is a a whole market of confused consumers who don't know whats good, whats a rip off, whats worth having, and are basically just hacked off with the whole thing.

This is about the crux of it for me personally and why I don't buy magazines. I think after someone has spent a long time getting to know about different bits of kit (in my case amps, and I'm FAR from any kind of expert) then you just start to see through all the nonsense. Juan must have the same thing. Every time a new fancy boost pedal pops up, how long is it before it is exposed as being essentially a tube screamer?

Amps too. I don't mind an amp costing a lot if I can see the worksmanship and attention to detail that SHOULD be in small run high end amps (but should really be in all new amps) but all too often it's repeats of old circuits built with an amount of care that I wouldn't call low, just not above average. Even that wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't done "warts & all" as it is in a lot of cases. Also, when people DO claim to make new and exciting valve circuits it's often nonsense. The technology was covered to death years ago when it was the main technology of the day. Now that it's pretty much obselete outside of music it's not like there is anything cutting edge happening with it.

When I see a hefty price tag I like to see exactly how something is made and what its made of before I consider parting with cash. If something is meant to have "state of the art" components I want to know what they are and what they are doing. I'm even less concerned with marketting waffle about non quantifiable tonal benefits. The more 'blah' a read from a company the less interested I get. Show me what it is and let the work speak for itself. Job done.

PS. I like that new Guthrie Charvel.

[Dave Sloven]

I tend to stick with a few brands that I have had good experience with and that friends who play the same kind of music have recommended to me.  The Peavey 6505 amp series was recommended to me by a few friends and I was aware also of a few issues with them and the common fixes.  So I picked the amp out of that series that I liked and then got an ISP Decimator and a Maxon overdrive for it. Sharon Bascovsky from Derketa had been raving about the Polytune on facebook and several of my friends who I respect chimed in with their agreement on that pedal so I got one of those. I had positive experiences with a couple of MXR/Dunlop pedals so I ended up getting a few more of them, and several of the pedals - such as the Carbon Copy, the EVH Phase 90, and the Crybaby From Hell - had been recommended to me by people.  The T-Rex Fuel Tank Chameleon was recommended to me by someone here, same thing with the Orange PPC412 cab.

I tend to take the advice of people with similar needs to mine who are just a step or two ahead of me on it rather than magazines or business owners as the basis of my decisions.  Sure some people have big egos and just want you to endorse their decisions by buying what they bought but I can generally sniff that kind of attitude out.  Magazines are generally hype.  Their decisions are determined by advertising dollars.  Actual sales of magazines are only a small part of their revenue.  In terms of credibility they are just as happy with the appearance of it as with the real thing

[tekbow]

PS. I like that new Guthrie Charvel.

http://www.themusiczoo.com/product/982/Charvel-Custom-Shop-Exclusive-San-Dimas-Koa-Natural-Series-Electric-Guitar/

there's the natural series, I will have one some day...

I like the Guthrie too, didn't mean to give the impression i didn't, I just prefer the asthetic of the natural series a little more (and the non routed floyd vs the current pro mods lol)

What you have left now is a a whole market of confused consumers who don't know whats good, whats a rip off, whats worth having, and are basically just hacked off with the whole thing.

This is about the crux of it for me personally and why I don't buy magazines. I think after someone has spent a long time getting to know about different bits of kit (in my case amps, and I'm FAR from any kind of expert) then you just start to see through all the nonsense. Juan must have the same thing. Every time a new fancy boost pedal pops up, how long is it before it is exposed as being essentially a tube screamer?

This is the thing, despite some forum's obvious insanity, forums are still the best source of info about gear (in the case of pedals i'm thinking about freestompboxes and the dude on TGP who, despite the wider mentalness shown there was the the guy who degooped the Jan Ray and outed it as a Timmy). It doesn't seem to occur to mags (neither is it worth their while i guess) to find out more about the product they're reviewing.

Then you get some of the higher end guitar stores like Guitar Guitar, who, despite having a good selection of high end and boutique gear, really don't know what they're selling.

I went in there a while back to buy a delay, and started talking to the guy about strobe tuners (was looking for a turbo tuner at the time). and he turned round and recommended to me something or other that had a strobe mode but, importantly, wasn't a true strobe tuner. It was a had a virtual "strobe" mode, in addition to a bunch of other display options (wasn't a polytune, but can't remember exactly what it was). When i explained to him that a strobe tuner was a very specific thing in terms of functionality and how it worked, he actually looked a little PO'd.. like i'd made an idiot out of him or something. Then i noticed they had the Vemurem Jan Rays in stock. I said something like "Oh no.. you didn't get those in did you?" again he looked suprised, and i told him about it's outing as a clone for twice the price of the original.

i was given a very cool reception after that..

Shops do not like people who know their stuff. I'm not an expert, but I do keep an ear to the ground.

It seems to me the shops (as entities rather than individual salesmen) are just as happy to promote hype as the Magazines are. I know they don't have the time to research everything they sell, i mean the guys responsible for getting new lines in, but they started selling that pedal after the Jan Ray thing broke when 2 mins on google would have told them what the score was. I actually think it's a little immoral to be selling those things.

[dave_mc]

DaveMC will hopefully testify to what i'm about to say, the same thing happened in the boutique pedal market. Everyone and his dog suddenly became a boutique pedal builder, and boutique became equated with pricey and over rated (which isn't necessarily the case at all) There was the minor beginnings of a backlash, then the freekish blues (and a number of other things happened) and there was a major backlash.

What you have left now is a a whole market of confused consumers who don't know whats good, whats a rip off, whats worth having, and are basically just hacked off with the whole thing.

Juan Solo or someone like that will know way better than me, but yeah, that sounds about right :lol:

People are right to be annoyed, too. I was very, very close to buying a bunch of boutique effects before the whole freekish thing blew up. Which then made me investigate further. But really it was just dumb luck that saved me. Are there plenty of more reputable good effects makers too? Sure. But the less scrupulous ones spoil it for everyone. I basically won't buy a pedal now until I know what its circuit is.

This is about the crux of it for me personally and why I don't buy magazines. I think after someone has spent a long time getting to know about different bits of kit (in my case amps, and I'm FAR from any kind of expert) then you just start to see through all the nonsense. Juan must have the same thing. Every time a new fancy boost pedal pops up, how long is it before it is exposed as being essentially a tube screamer?

Amps too. I don't mind an amp costing a lot if I can see the worksmanship and attention to detail that SHOULD be in small run high end amps (but should really be in all new amps) but all too often it's repeats of old circuits built with an amount of care that I wouldn't call low, just not above average. Even that wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't done "warts & all" as it is in a lot of cases. Also, when people DO claim to make new and exciting valve circuits it's often nonsense. The technology was covered to death years ago when it was the main technology of the day. Now that it's pretty much obselete outside of music it's not like there is anything cutting edge happening with it.

When I see a hefty price tag I like to see exactly how something is made and what its made of before I consider parting with cash. If something is meant to have "state of the art" components I want to know what they are and what they are doing. I'm even less concerned with marketting waffle about non quantifiable tonal benefits. The more 'blah' a read from a company the less interested I get. Show me what it is and let the work speak for itself. Job done.

Agreed (and I know far less that you and Juan Solo know).

(a) This is the thing, despite some forum's obvious insanity, forums are still the best source of info about gear (in the case of pedals i'm thinking about freestompboxes and the dude on TGP who, despite the wider mentalness shown there was the the guy who degooped the Jan Ray and outed it as a Timmy). It doesn't seem to occur to mags (neither is it worth their while i guess) to find out more about the product they're reviewing.

(b) Then i noticed they had the Vemurem Jan Rays in stock. I said something like "Oh no.. you didn't get those in did you?" again he looked suprised, and i told him about it's outing as a clone for twice the price of the original.

i was given a very cool reception after that..

Shops do not like people who know their stuff. I'm not an expert, but I do keep an ear to the ground.

(a) I don't think I'd call that guy a TGPer. I know him on Ultimate Guitar, I'd say he's more of a regular there than TGP, he's as sceptical (actually probably more so) of TGP as we are. He's on freestompboxes and sites like that, too- I don't want to categorise him, as he's more than capable of speaking for himself, lol, but yeah, he's not exactly your regular TGPer, I don't think.

Even saying that, there are some people on TGP who have sense. Much like the pedal thing, the bad ones spoil it for the rest. Though at TGP it doesn't help that the mods often take the side of the bad ones.

(b) :lol:

And yeah, agreed. While you have good shops too, which are happy to talk gear with people who half know what they're talking about, you have the other thing too which you said, where they don't like to be challenged and would rather sell to someone who doesn't know who'll buy the BS they're spouting.

The other thing that's quite concerning too is that you don't have to know that much, a lot of the time, to see through their nonsense. I mean, I could understand it if Jonathan/Feline or Juan Solo or HTH or someone like that who makes the things knew more than your average guitar shop worker- but even someone who knows as little as me can often see through what they're saying.

[juansolo]

DaveMC will hopefully testify to what i'm about to say, the same thing happened in the boutique pedal market. Everyone and his dog suddenly became a boutique pedal builder, and boutique became equated with pricey and over rated (which isn't necessarily the case at all) There was the minor beginnings of a backlash, then the freekish blues (and a number of other things happened) and there was a major backlash.

What you have left now is a a whole market of confused consumers who don't know whats good, whats a rip off, whats worth having, and are basically just hacked off with the whole thing.

Juan Solo or someone like that will know way better than me, but yeah, that sounds about right :lol:

People are right to be annoyed, too. I was very, very close to buying a bunch of boutique effects before the whole freekish thing blew up. Which then made me investigate further. But really it was just dumb luck that saved me. Are there plenty of more reputable good effects makers too? Sure. But the less scrupulous ones spoil it for everyone. I basically won't buy a pedal now until I know what its circuit is.

A LOT of unscrupulous peeps cashed in on the boutique pedal thing. But there are signs... Is it massively expensive? Does it look like it was assembled by a blindfolded parkinson's sufferer? Is it marketed with the floweriest fluff that tells you nothing at all about the actual effect, but claims that not only will it make your SS amp sound like a vintage tube amp, it'll make you more awesome. Does it look like it was painted by a 3 year old or labeled up by someone who frankly didn't give a shite? Is it the current latest TGP fad? Finally has someone sneezed black goop all over it or made attempts to hide what's in it.

The best thing to do is try them yourself if you can. Or ask questions on the DIY forums. The people on there have dissected and reverse engineered most effects (because it's fun) and will give you an idea of what's what.

BUT

Like amps and like guitars, there are only so many variations of pedals out there. So complaining that most pedals are Tube Screamers at heart is like complaining most amps are Fenders/Marshals or most guitars are essentially Les Pauls or Strats/Teles...

[tekbow]

Like amps and like guitars, there are only so many variations of pedals out there. So complaining that most pedals are Tube Screamers at heart is like complaining most amps are Fenders/Marshals or most guitars are essentially Les Pauls or Strats/Teles...

which is fine, however.. i don't think anyones particulary bothered about most pedals being tube screamers, UNLESS of course it's as you described and is claiming to be something it's not. Or has been mojofied with magic capacitors etc and a premium charged. Like i said, the TS's run from £30 to, quite literally 10x that. and they al sound very much the same.

There is another aspect though, Build quality is important. There's a discussion on TDPRI over joyo pedals. Noones saying they sound bad, quite the opposite in fact, but what most people are saying is that the durability is sketchy. So sometimes, when you buy "boutique" you can be paying a little more for something thats rock solid and will last forever. Same with amps too.

Oh, meant to ask Juan, you mentioned a while back, in another thread, someone was working on degooping the Lazy J cruiser, did anything ever come of that?

[juansolo]

Don't think so. Check out FSB. Generally speaking, when it comes to tracing boutique stuff, it's all there. But it's only visible if you sign up.

It doesn't look like anyone's been arsed to de-goop it yet. Someones posted pictures of the guts and it certainly ticks a few of the boxes I mentioned about. It looks like it was wired by someone on speed during the throes of orgasm and someone sneezed black snot all over it.

[Dave Sloven]

I got a Maxon for the build quality.

Then I found I don't really like the OD-9's footswitch, so now I am going for a cheaper MXR version.

Seriously though, these must be some high fidelity PAs that people are playing through with their tube screamers if anyone can tell the difference when they are on stage.  Plus most gigs I go to are so loud people are either wearing ear plugs or are going deaf from not wearing them, so how could they pick subtle differences between boutique and bargain bin? A lot of it seems to be about 'my wallet is bigger than yours' bragging rights

[juansolo]

Also true. Again the same can be said for amps, guitars and pickups.

[King Zog of Albania]

... mojofied with magic capacitors etc and a premium charged.

https://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=198&zenid=9f2e3994ce3337f059bcf2dd8ef61068

[juansolo]

I'm saying nothin'.

[tekbow]

I got a Maxon for the build quality.

Then I found I don't really like the OD-9's footswitch, so now I am going for a cheaper MXR version.

Seriously though, these must be some high fidelity PAs that people are playing through with their tube screamers if anyone can tell the difference when they are on stage.  Plus most gigs I go to are so loud people are either wearing ear plugs or are going deaf from not wearing them, so how could they pick subtle differences between boutique and bargain bin? A lot of it seems to be about 'my wallet is bigger than yours' bragging rights

Can be, can be. to be fair to the keeley (although i can't justify the current price of it) they have a less/more mod that gives you an extended gain pot range, so you can get more of a clean boost, and more gain too. also the bottom end is less flubby, but thats less noticeable. Then again i believe the VS Route 808 has those mods built in and is cheaper than a TS9.

Some of it is, some of is isn't. Skreddys for example (they too have gone up in price) are very very good, specific sound Big Muffs, and built expertly like tanks. D*A*M does some very very faitful repros of old circuits, but also has some really intersting stuff like the Dragnfly which i s a cross between a tonebender and fuzzface. Again, only expensive second hand, but get on a list, have some patience and you pay a reasonable price. Also built like tanks. I have a Dragnfly, there's nothing else like it, very unique in terms of what it does.way more flexible than either of its parents.

There's a brand called Nine Volt Nirvana. I'm lucky enough to own a few of their pedals, and they are they best fuzz and drive pedals i own. The really cool thing about them is when the company went belly up the owner open sourced the schematics, so people could still have one if they wanted.

But yes,  I also agree live mixes are a great equaliser. Some of it is the guitarist being happy with their own tone. Most people in an audience in your average pub, bar or club gig, lets face it, can't tell the difference between Marshall OD, Fender OD, Vox OD etc etc, never mind pedals. so there is an argument for being happy with your set up.