Thinking of going low output - thoughts?

[Markdude]

I received a Nailbomb and Cold Sweat a few weeks ago, and I haven't gotten them installed yet. I'm not so handy with a soldering iron, I've never touched one in my life, and I don't want to risk messing up my new pickups and new nice LP by doing it myself, so I was going to take it to a tech. But...around the same time, my car also died and I dropped a pretty big down payment on a new one. So I'll be pretty low on funds for a while and I won't have a chance to get the new pickups installed for maybe a month or so. In the meantime, I've done some more research and I actually think low output pickups are the way to go for me. I know, I know, I'm a gear whore...haven't even tried these pickups and I already want new ones. :lol:

I think a pair of Mules might do me well. I'm only playing high gain stuff about 25% of the time, and I think I'd appreciate the open character of something like a Mule more. Especially since I know low output pickups are brighter, and I always struggle to get my guitars sounding bright enough in recorded mixes. These would be going in a Gibson Les Paul Signature T (mahogany body, maple cap), by the way.

I've dug up some samples that represent some of my ideal tones:

Pete Thorn - LP Burst
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-duj8uNLdjs
(playing starts at 0:35) Although I don't do much classic-rock style riffing, this video is what really inspired me to go low output. The chimy character and the "clang" and the bright, wide open character is really something I'm after.

Oceansize - Unfamiliar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFkyrRqzkIQ
This is one of my favorite bands of all time and the tone and playing styles of this video are probably the closest representation to what I want. I'm sure some of those tones are single coil, but they're a 3 guitar band so I think there are some humbuckers in there too. These are pretty much perfect mid-gain and clean tones in my book.

Jimmy Eat World - Futures
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8r85_JUnA4
I'm pretty sure this is a Tele with humbuckers, so I know I probably can't get quite as much clang, but once again, this is the kind of open, full-bodied mid-gain tone I go for.

Cave-In - Joy Opposites
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnm3QJIdmhg
Quite a bit of delay on the guitars in this song, but the main riff at 0:14 is a good example of what I like. Something about the mids in this one sounds like a Tele to me as well, so I know I won't be able to nail it, but I think it showcases the open midrange quality I like.

Those previous clips showcase the kind of gain level and tone I'd use the majority of the time. I feel the thing they all have in common is a really wide-open, lively, organic vibe. They have plenty of jangle and upper end presence, but aren't harsh at all. They seem to easily come to the front of the mix and capture your attention, but aren't brash or overbearing. Tons of clarity as well. I'm hoping those are traits of low output pickups. Do you guys think the Mules would be a good choice? I should also mention that I plan on integrating coil splitting. I've heard low output may not be good for that though, unfortunately. It would be for recording only, not live playing, so if the factor is mainly the volume difference, I don't mind.

Also, I had been researching the Abraxas set but I think the Mule would be a bit better (I really want to be sure the bridge is pretty bright). However, I came across this clip of mostly the neck Abraxas and I think that's my ideal glassy neck clean. I've read that the Abraxas neck and Mule neck are really similar, but the Abraxas is a little brighter. Can the Mule neck cop the tone in this clip?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfANqu0k3qw

Additionally, although I spend probably 25% of the time playing high gain stuff, here are some high gain tones I like. However, I found a couple of high gain clips Nolly made with Mules and they sound great, so I'm not too worried about that:

Gob - Bones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g4u_Cnut_U

Gojira - Liquid Fire
http://youtu.be/RyWSswHrqrw

Here's Nolly's high gain Mule clips:

https://soundcloud.com/nolly/snuggles-tenzing-norgay

https://soundcloud.com/nolly/blackmachine-b2-burl-high-gain

I've already e-mailed Ben and he said the Mules or the Abraxas would probably be the way to go. I'd just like to get the opinion of you guys, as well, before I make any kind of decision. I'm leaning more towards the Mule because the Abraxas bridge seems significantly higher output and I've heard that it's darker than the Mule, and I'd really like a bright, clear tone. Ben also mentioned that Gojira uses Nailbombs, but since I only play high gain a little bit of the time and Nolly's high gain Mule clips sound great, I'm still leaning towards low output.

Any thoughts? It's a radical shift from what I had originally planned (the Nailbomb and Cold Sweat), but I'm thinking it might be better.

[Dave Sloven]

If you want bright in a Les Paul with still a decent amount of output I would go for the Emerald set.  I fitted a set of these to a friend's LP and they sound beautiful, very open but still a lot of output.

Otherwise if you want more vintage, lower output look at the Riff Raff set.

These are just suggestions for pickups to look at more closely.  It really depends on the sound you are after, but both will work well with a Les Paul

[Telerocker]

You can't go wrong with Mules in a Les Paul. They sound beautifully open, articulate, 3d and full, yet with a lovely crispiness. The bridge has the treble to cut through the mix. The neck is my absolutely fav, clear and refined. Bridge and neck combined sounds georgeous too. On a Fender-style amp you can even funk with it.

[Markdude]

After some more research, it looks like the Riff Raff would be a great contender too. Damnit, it's so hard to choose!  :lol:

[Telerocker]

After some more research, it looks like the Riff Raff would be a great contender too. Damnit, it's so hard to choose!  :lol:

I know the problem.  :) What amp(s) you have? Certain amps like brighter pickups. I noticed my The Valve 2/50 favours tele's and strats.

[BigB]

Mules and RiffRaff can do hi-gain for sure, but you'll need the right amp and the right playing technic - and even then they won't have the tightness and aggression you'd get from Nailbombs. Nailbombs (well, ABombs at least) are quite more versatile than you'd expect and playing with the volume pot can get in the RiffRaff territory, though with less chime. When it comes to clean tones, well, Nailbombs are nice - until you compare them with Mules :mrgreen:

I don't think the Abraxas would be brigther than the Mules, on the contrary (Abraxas being mostly an overwound Mule) - FWIW Mule bridge is quite bright, almost twangy.

I did not listen to _all_ the clips you posted but from what I heard and what you say, you could get by with the Nailbomb / Cold Seat, but Mules or RiffRaff would probably make you happier for clean / crunch tones and still deliver the goods for higher gain settings. Also if you feel like you miss some hi-end cut, check your pots and if they are 300K (Gibby standard), replace them with 500K ones, will make a huge difference (you might even find yourself using the tone pot).

Just my 2 cents...

Oh and yes : I've long been a hi-output 'buckers user and now find myself mostly using my Mule'd LP.  There's really something to lower output pups...

[Markdude]

Cool, thanks for the info, guys!

Telerocker, I usually play a Mesa Single Rectifier Rect-O-Verb, but I'm not a metalhead, haha. I run a dummy load with it and run the FX send signal into my audio interface, then use cabinet IRs. It's actually a really versatile rig, lots of tones to be had between the different channel modes. I also do a lot of direct recording with VST amp sims. And I plan on buying more preamps (used to have a Marshall JMP-1 and an ADA MP-1 that sounded great this way) to add to my "half real, half digital" recording rig.

BigB, I've actually never played with especially high output pickups before, so these were gonna be my introduction to them, I suppose. But as I get older, I find myself writing and playing with clean and lower gain tones more and more, so they're especially important to me. Sparkle, chime, and clarity are now the name of the game for me. I do like high gain stuff now and then, but my rig is a Mesa Single Rectifier Rect-O-Verb (clean boosted with a TS-9 when I'm doing gainy stuff), so it can definitely get me into metal territory and I don't think I need to rely on the pickups for that. But if anything, the feel of high output pickups would be more alien to me than lower output ones, not the other way around. I don't necessarily want a super aggressive tone when I'm doing high gain stuff, just one with more clarity and one that cuts through the mix a little better. But Nolly's high gain clips have definitely convinced me that The Mules won't be a slouch with high gain stuff (and I like the openness and slight grittiness), and pretty much everything else I've heard and read has convinced me they will be amazing for cleans and low gain stuff (which are more important to me). I think I just jumped the gun on wanting something high output, and now have realized low output would probably be more in line with the kinds of tone and playing I like.

Oh yeah, and I got BKP 500k tone pots and 550k volume pots too, along with Jensen caps. So I'm sure that'll help as well.

[BigB]

Definitly looks like a job for the Mules then.

Oh yeah, and I got BKP 500k tone pots and 550k volume pots too, along with Jensen caps. So I'm sure that'll help as well.

Indeed. You may want to ask your tech to wire your tone caps 50s style so you won't loose too much hi-end when rolling down the volume pots - works wonder with the Mules, they really clean up amazingly even at very high gain settings : https://soundcloud.com/monalisa-overdrive/lp-mule-bridge-volume-pot (out of tune and sloppy playing sorry but that's not the point anyway).

[ericsabbath]

riff raffs
I love the mules better a little better for low gain stuff, but the riff raff is the twang king and retains all the clarity under any amount of gain, while the mules tend to blend things quite a bit on high gain (in a pleasant way, actually, but it does lose clarity in comparison to the riff raff)
unpotted mules should be a little clearer and brighter, more like the Pete Thorn video

[gwEm]

theres something really cool about the open crunch of low output pickups. makes you dig in more and its really satisfying.

in terms of actual *output" if you dig in with Mules you quickly find you can get your transients as high as something like a Miracle Man without too much effort. The difference is the tone is generally less open/saturated. you can get more saturation with a pedal of course.

the scatterwinding/materials of BKPs generally mean you keep alot more definition under high gain than main stream low output pickups.

[darkandrew]

I've just done a very similar sort of thing in my ESP Eclipse - out go the Crawlers and in come a brand new set of Mules (ordered yesterday).

[Markdude]

Gaaaaaah. Still can't decide between a Mule bridge or Riff Raff bridge! Seems like the Riff Raff would be better for any kind of rock stuff and the Mule would be better for clean and low gain stuff (I'm one of the few players who actually DOES like to sometimes use a bridge humbucker for clean stuff...usually slow fingerstyle with a very light touch, and twang isn't all that desirable in that context, but twang provides the clarity with gain, so I guess it's always a tradeoff). I can't choose because both of those styles are equally important to me.  :lol:

Also can't decide if I want to go potted or not. Like I mentioned earlier, I record direct usually (with a real amp's FX send), and even with high gain stuff and the monitors pretty loud, it's really difficult to get feedback even if I do actually want it. And I don't plan on playing this guitar live. If I ever do get a real band together again and play live again, I'd probably buy a cheaper guitar to gig with, so this one will probably be a studio axe only. I'm thinking because of the recording situation (i.e. usually can't even get musical controlled feedback, let alone microphonic feedback), I could get away with unpotted. But I've never played unpotted pickups before, and even though I hear people rave about them, I can't really find any good representations of what the difference sounds like. Hmm...but I'll probably play it high gain with real cabinets occasionally (jamming with friends), so I guess I'm leaning towards potted just to be safe.

[Slartibartfarst42]

It seems to me that while you clearly like vintage pups, you're also drawn towards trying things that are a bit hotter otherwise you wouldn't have ordered the Nailbomb. The ideal middle ground to me is an Emerald set. Bright, clear and open but with enough juice to really start cooking with a valve amp. Mules would be my second suggestion, closely followed by Riff Raffs but I think you'd really like the Emeralds. The neck is widely known as an incredible pickup but the bridge is much underated and offers a hell of a lot to the discerning musician.

[gwEm]

The Mule can handle a decent amount of gain. Anything up to and including 80s rock levels is easily fine. I think Metallica levels of gain are a little too much, but still ok.

If you are worried you could go with some kind of combination. For example a Riff Raff bridge and a Mule neck, or even a Stormy Monday neck.

Sounds definitely like you would be better to go potted.

[miguelbatalha]

You want low output but you still want that hot sound and feel, go for the Emerald Set and crank up your amp.