Username: Password:

Author Topic: Playing outside the box...  (Read 12110 times)

Johnny Mac

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 5841
    • Ultimate Guitar Profile
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2006, 08:52:24 PM »
Quote from: Searcher
Quote from: Johnny Mac
Learning new shapes and modes is good and i do that but can't apply them too well and it just sounds like scales.


Ya gotta push past the it-sounds-like-scales barrier, Johnny.  Put on a chord progression that just loops and loops.  Pick the appropriate mode and go for it.  After a while (maybe half an hour with the same four chords) you get to a point where you kinda think, "Now what the hell do I play?", because you've played everything that quickly comes to mind.  That's when you start to really get into the interesting stuff.  That's when the creative side kicks in.



I'll give that a go thanks for the tip searcher! It's the phrasing in modes that i need to work on. How many modes can you freely play in? I was talking to my girlfriend about this at the weekend, (she's a music teacher plays lots of wind instruments) and I'm saying about the harmonic minor and i have a book on modes which is a great reference (Scales and modes by Cliff Dowse) there's like about 20-30 different shapes on this scale which to me sounds like a confusing amount of stuff to learn. Then you have all the Dorian, phrygian etc so where do you say enough? It would be great to learn and apply all this knowledge but realistically it's not feasible for me!
Warpig, MQ,
Miracle Man-Trilogy Suite, Cold Sweats, Black Guards, Rebel Yells & Irish Tours!

HTH AMPS

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 5649
    • HTH AMPS
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2006, 09:24:37 PM »
I take it you're playing around with the various 'positions' you have available with the standard pentatonic scale ???? - try mixing in some major pentatonic licks here and there to spice it up (think Angus Young - checkout the Highway To Hell solo).  Another obvious major/minor blues type player is Gary Moore.

Get some two-string riffs in there & more groove orientated stuff along the lines of what Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top does - his stuff really is a master class in tastfull pentatonic playing.

Lastly, listen to something different & work it out - you'll eventually work those licks into your playing.  Some of the original Chicago Blues guys had very individual styles that you can cop from - Albert King, Buddy Guy, Muddy Water - trying all those micro-bends that he excelled in with the slide.

 :twisted:

Johnny Mac

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 5841
    • Ultimate Guitar Profile
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2006, 09:28:47 PM »
Quote from: HEAVIER THAN HELL
I take it you're playing around with the various 'positions' you have available with the standard pentatonic scale ???? - try mixing in some major pentatonic licks here and there to spice it up (think Angus Young - checkout the Highway To Hell solo).  Another obvious major/minor blues type player is Gary Moore.

Get some two-string riffs in there & more groove orientated stuff along the lines of what Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top does - his stuff really is a master class in tastfull pentatonic playing.

Lastly, listen to something different & work it out - you'll eventually work those licks into your playing.  Some of the original Chicago Blues guys had very individual styles that you can cop from - Albert King, Buddy Guy, Muddy Water - trying all those micro-bends that he excelled in with the slide.

 :twisted:


Yes i know all the pentatonic shapes through an octave, plus majors. It's the exotic stuff i have trouble with.

I big into Joe Walsh he does some wicked 1/4 tone bends!
Warpig, MQ,
Miracle Man-Trilogy Suite, Cold Sweats, Black Guards, Rebel Yells & Irish Tours!

donovan.x

  • Lightweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 518
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2006, 10:10:55 PM »
You should start to learn, 1 The scales as they are, not in shapes but in intervals and structure, you will soon see just how simple it all is.
and 2, I would say it is more about building your arsenal of techniques and tricks.
 Think of it as scales being the foundation and then when you understand them you can move on to putting the notes into context mixed with some kick ass skills.
Maybe get a guitar teacher, I know a good one in torrington!!! :D  :D  :D
DEATH TO ALL BUT METAL!

Underground_Player

  • Featherweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 258
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2006, 10:29:13 PM »
Quote
How many modes can you freely play in?


I suppose it depends what you're playing over! Some modes are very specific and others are more ambiguous. Like over a major progression you might be able to use the straight Ionian (7 note happy-clappy major scale) as well as getting away with the Mixolydian, ie just adding a flat seventh (a tone down from the octave instead of half a tone). On top of that you might be able to get away with loads of passing notes. Man this is a pretty big question!!
On the 'which modes to learn' thing, I'd say for 90% of popular music the modes of the major scale are enough. I'm not sure how much you know here so 'scuse me if this is patronising but.... there are 7 notes in the major scale, and therefore there are 7 different notes you could start from to form new scales out of the same bunch of notes. Say you're playing in C, the notes of C major would be C D E F G A B. That's your first mode, which as everything has to be given a freakin name is known as the Ionian. The second mode, starting on the second note of the Major scale, is D E F G A B C.  Obviously you have to be playing in the key of the first note in the scale (D this time) otherwise it would sound identical to the first mode.

Etc.

I might put a short clip up of some modal playing over ambiguous major/minor chords tomorrow to try to demonstrate how much you can get away with regarding the use of more than one mode at a time to answer the above question. And also, mainly, so tom, muttley or yourself Johnny can nick licks if you want, because it's a damn sight easier than learning all the modal stuff!

Disclaimer! I'm by no means an expert on this stuff - otherwise I wouldn't be at college :) - and I'm pretty sure someone like HJM could easily out-mode me....but I'll give it a shot, and you can take it or leave it as it were.
Mostly Harmless

Underground_Player

  • Featherweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 258
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2006, 11:02:07 PM »
Sod it I'll get something down now...afternoon lessons tomorrow  :D
Mostly Harmless

sambo

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 4519
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2006, 11:02:54 PM »
woo! go you...  :D

willo

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 1512
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2006, 11:11:50 PM »
Hey I posted this in the forum probably about a year ago or something, so it's long since been lost to the place of lost threads, but I found it on another forum. Here you go (this is just the basic modes though)

Im going to outline some basic ways to learn your scales, add variety and increase your technique, control, speed and phrasing within scale-learning. But! It will be boring, so you need to make sure you are willing to do it!

LEARNING THE MAJOR SCALE AND IT'S MODES

Firstly, i would recommend you go here

Come here...

and download chapter one for now. its a pdf file of the tablature from the dvd of John Mclaughlin (one of the greatest guitarists ever IMO). The particular document we will need is in the chapter 1 zip file called 'All Modes'.

Play through this and you will learn the C major scale through two octaves in one position, and then all the subsequent modes of Cmajor. Notice that the second - Dorian - mode is the exact same as the C major scale, just starting and ending on D, the second note of the C major scale. Like the 3 rd mode, the Phyrgian mode is just from E, the third note of the C major scale, to E again. This is all modes are - scales within scales! Its very easy to learn them when you realise this.

At this stage i would recommend making a conscious effort to relate the tablature to the musical score above it, thereby learning the notes on the treble clef. They go like this:

-----F----
-----D----
-----B----
-----G----
-----E----

You can remember this by the mnemonic (i think thats the word!) Every Good Boy Deserves Football. However, for example, G will always remain on the same line of the treble clef stave, regardless of whether it is normal (natural), sharp, or flat. To signify its tonality, it will be prefaced by a '#' for sharp, or a 'b' for flat. This is really straightforward, but confuses a lot of guitarists - still catches me out a lot, im so used to tab!

When you have learnt the notes of the C major scale (C D E F G A B C), you can learn them all over the fretboard and work out scale patterns for yourself, but you should always, always, always start and end your patterns on the root note so you train your ear properly. It is critical to hear the notes of a scale in relation to their root note! Also, be aware that the C major scale can be a little misleading! If you were going to transpose it to an A Major scale, you might think that, as Cmaj is C D E F G A B C then Amaj would be A B C D E F G, but you would be wrong! Notice that the intervals are what is crucial- in the correct C major scale the difference between 3rd and 4th notes (E & F) is a semitone, but in the assumed version of A major we have C & D, a difference of a semitone, meaning our version of A major is incorrect! The formula/ pattern of intervals between notes for any major scale is:

Tone
Tone
Semitone
Tone
Tone
Tone
Semitone

So the correct A major scale would be A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A. A scale of A B C D E F G A would actually be the Aeolian mode of A major (see the downloaded notes!)

PLAYING TECHNIQUE


Firstly, get a metronome-there are many you can download for free online. I use something called Musebook, but i have no idea if its particularly good, it was the only one i downloaded and it has good tempos and time signatures so thats all that matters to me!

Obviously, the most obvious route of learning scales is to increase the speed at which you play them over time, using your metronome to control the speed. A good tip is to record the speed at which you can play the scale, and keep track of your progress. Also, make sure you play on a clean sound, and don't increase the tempo of the metronome til you can actually play it perfectly - dont lie to yourself! its just wasting your time! and also make a conscious effort to use all four fingers to really improve your fretboard ability.

But this is not all you can do. You could play the scale legato (example 1) so that you only pick the first note per string and the rest is all played with hammer ons (ascending through the scale) and pull-offs (descending).

Or you could use scales to practise your alternate picking. In example 2a, i am starting each string on an up pick, followed by a downpick, then an up-pick (hence the 'alternate' picking). In 2b, it is reversed, with me starting on a downpick, then an up-pick, then a down-pick. This really will focus and improve your ability to alternate pick - and learning to start with both up and downpicks will allow you to use the technique a lot more easily. after all, sometimes you aren't always going to be in a position to start with an up-pick, but if you dont know how to pick starting on a down-pick you are going to be screwed!

In example 2c, im mixing the two techiques, playing the first three notes legato then the next three alternate picked, a technique used by people such as Paul Gilbert etc- it can be used to make fast soloing sound a lot more aggressive!

Then we should consider phrasing, and note groupings. In 3a, the notes are played as triplets (three notes per beat), and this is how most people would approach a pattern that has 3 notes per string. But in 3b we are now playing 4 notes per beat (quavers i think), yet exactly the same notes, in the same order. This kind of playing may take you some getting used to if you've never done it before it can be a bit of a head$%&#. Especially if you play it legato. In 3c, the notes are played as quintuplets (5 notes per beat) which tends to confuse pretty much everyone! Just think of a word with 5 syllables, e.g. hip-po-pot-a-mus or whatever. I've had to refigure the scale here to fit, but obviously you can play it in any order that takes your fancy! Again, play it legato or picked or mixed. Just keep mixing up all the techniques and see what you get! You could play one beat in quintuplets, one in quavers, etc, just push yourself and track your progress with the metronome!

Also, its worth thinking about odd ways to play through your scales, maybe you could skip from the bottom E string to play the next 3 notes on the D string or suchlike? (i forgot to draw an example for this sorry!)

Just be open-minded and constantly mix up all the techniques. And learn it all in all the different keys to push yourself, and let your ears be the guide, when you are feeling confident! And learn all the scales all over the fretboard, not just the ones ive given you. to force yourself to work something out usually means you will learn it a lot better!

Obviously this is all about the major scale, but most rock playing centres on this or the minor pentatonic. To learn other scales just search the web, one place i found was

http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/basic/page2.php

but there are many more!

Two more examples ive put at the bottom of the tab concern playing in minor pentatonics (C minor here to be precise!). I mentioned this to berney a while back, instead of playing two-notes per string like most pentatonic scales do (4a), you can push yourself to play 3 notes per string. Its exactly the same notes, same order but it really stretches your fingers.
 


Thats about all i can think of right now; if there are any mistakes or questions anyone has then please feel free to ask - i was feeling a bit tired today so sorry if its a bit disjointed. hope it helps!

just remember, be creative in learning your scales, you can use them as warm-ups or actual technical practise. Mix up all the different techniques and you'll make good progress!
The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away...

sambo

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 4519
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2006, 11:13:58 PM »
err.... did you type all that...?

Ian.... mate.... you rock...

Muttley

  • Lightweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 795
    • http://www.muttleyville.org
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2006, 12:22:04 AM »
Quote from: 38thBeatle
Muttley, I often fall back on blues licks so I know where you are coming from ( plus I was a bass player for years so akll theis lead guitar stuff is relatively new to me). You may or may not be into him but Robben Ford is a great player to listen to as he pushes boundries but still retains a sense of melody.


Robben Ford is excellent, although I only have the one album by him (s/t Robben Ford & The Blue Line).

I think maybe I do need to try and actually work out some different styles rather than just listen to them.  That might hammer home some new ideas (I can be pretty dense at times :P).

Muttley

Muttley

  • Lightweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 795
    • http://www.muttleyville.org
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2006, 12:24:49 AM »
Quote from: donovanx
Maybe get a guitar teacher, I know a good one in torrington!!! :D  :D  :D


I think I'm going to actually do that (once I've got this house move out of the way), and maybe actually do some of the exams, as that should really focus me on some theory (I know very little theory, almost everything I've learnt has been by ear).

@everyone: Thanks for all the pointers, you've really given me some food for thought.

Muttley

Underground_Player

  • Featherweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 258
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2006, 01:49:50 AM »
Oh yeah sorry willo...I knew somebody had covered it. Pretty darn comprehensively I might add!

Right the thing's done at last...contrary to the last one take wonder this was in the double bleedin figures....anyway check the player's section.
Mostly Harmless

Chris1974

  • Flyweight
  • *
  • Posts: 64
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2006, 12:55:04 PM »
Learn a classic guitar solo - hendrix, BB King, Muddy waters, Rory Gallagher - ZZ top ............ who ever you like, that way you'll learn tons more new classic blues licks - take a few licks from one sole then practise moving it up and down the neck playing it in difffernent keys etc.

Johnny Mac

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 5841
    • Ultimate Guitar Profile
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2006, 07:48:07 PM »
Quote from: donovanx
You should start to learn, 1 The scales as they are, not in shapes but in intervals and structure, you will soon see just how simple it all is.
and 2, I would say it is more about building your arsenal of techniques and tricks.
 Think of it as scales being the foundation and then when you understand them you can move on to putting the notes into context mixed with some kick ass skills.
Maybe get a guitar teacher, I know a good one in torrington!!! :D  :D  :D


I went to a guitar teacher last year, John Mizarolli in NW London. He is a great teacher but he tends to draw things out in a long winded way to extend the amount of time you spend with him for extra money. Mind you he did improve my technique so i shouldn't grumble.
Warpig, MQ,
Miracle Man-Trilogy Suite, Cold Sweats, Black Guards, Rebel Yells & Irish Tours!

Johnny Mac

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 5841
    • Ultimate Guitar Profile
Playing outside the box...
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2006, 08:03:40 PM »
Thanks for all those insights. It kind seems quite daunting, i don't 'see' it all that easily. I've got scales and chords by David Mead on the caged theory and i know i shouldn't say this but its so boring. I'm not suprised though i was like this at school!  :lol: There must be a quicker way of 'seeing' how it all fits together. I might just take Eddie Van Halens approach and get pissed and play the 12 notes how ever i like, no it work work either!

I've been working on legato through major scales and that's working along nicely but it's a long winded process. That's what my teacher was telling me about, nail this technique and then move on to applying it to your playing. He used to switch from latin american satana style, blues, harmonic minor then in to this wacky greek hendrix style in a few bars and just left me speechless! That's the idea behind all these modes and scales, all the different flavours they conjour up. I've got these indian pentatonics and its like curry house blues, it sounds so good. Then there's these japanese ones, persian ect.
Warpig, MQ,
Miracle Man-Trilogy Suite, Cold Sweats, Black Guards, Rebel Yells & Irish Tours!