Black Dog.......WHY?

[ftwizard]

Something I can't quite understand. If the classic Page tone was made using a '58/'59 Les Paul with standard PAF pickups, why do we need to use a hot version, ie Black Dog, to emulate it.

[screamingdaisy]

Maybe he had is bridge rewound a little hotter?

[ftwizard]

Maybe he had is bridge rewound a little hotter?

Maybe, but the same principle applies to Riff Raffs, Stormy Mondays, Cold Sweats, etc.
The pickups that these are meant to emulate are all probably PAF's.
Wouldn't one pickup cover all these tones?

[MDV]

The BKs arent supposed to mimic the actual pickups.

They're just named for that sort of vibe.

I mean, take the Warpig. Iommi never used that much gain! Not by a long shot. Nor is it supposed to sound like sabbath. Its just named that because it gets the message accross of what the pickups about.

They have their own sound.

[SixGunLover]

I didn't read the full forum before posting, so this is going to read like a repeat of what MDV said:  :oops:

You'd have to ask Tim for the real story (I don't work for BKP, I just play 'em), but here's my guess:

Maybe Tim doesn't make the pickups to emulate or replicate the tone of a famous guitarist (in this case, Page), but probably has a 'sound' in mind when he's winding them, and then assigns them a label which suits the vibe of that sound (e.g. "They've kind of got that Jimmy Page tone going"). If you wanted to exactly duplicate Page's sound you'd buy the guy's exact equipment, but if you wanted to have your own distinct tone, but with a bit of that Page vibe, you'd buy the Black Dogs.

That's just a guess - Tim will be able to tell you what his actual intentions were.

[MDV]

You'd have to ask Tim for the real story (I don't work for BKP, I just play 'em), but here's my guess:

Maybe Tim doesn't make the pickups to emulate or replicate the tone of a famous guitarist (in this case, Page), but probably has a 'sound' in mind when he's winding them, and then assigns them a label which suits the vibe of that sound (e.g. "They've kind of got that Jimmy Page tone going"). If you wanted to exactly duplicate Page's sound you'd buy the guy's exact equipment, but if you wanted to have your own distinct tone, but with a bit of that Page vibe, you'd buy the Black Dogs.

That's just a guess - Tim will be able to tell you what his actual intentions were.

Thats basically it.

But its still not "If you want a page tone then its the black dog": it can do more than that, and more BKs than just that can do pagey sounds.

its a statement of the attitude of the pickup as much as anything, I think.

[screamingdaisy]

Maybe he had is bridge rewound a little hotter?

Maybe, but the same principle applies to Riff Raffs, Stormy Mondays, Cold Sweats, etc.
The pickups that these are meant to emulate are all probably PAF's.
Wouldn't one pickup cover all these tones?

Not really.  PAFs weren't consistant.  They used Alnico II, IV, and V magnets in them and the number of windings could be all over the place.  One PAF could could sound one way, then the next off the line could sound quite different.  The three 'vintage' pickup options with your choice of magnet are probably meant to reflect this.

[ftwizard]

Yes, I can understand it as a marketing tool. The guy who has an SG and loves AC/DC is going to be drawn to the Riff Raff etc. But any PAF clone is going to give that sound through the right amp.
I'm not dissing BKP's by the way, I have one in my LPJ and I think it's great, I'm just not sure you need so many variations to obtain what is a fairly standard tone.

[MDV]

Yes, I can understand it as a marketing tool. The guy who has an SG and loves AC/DC is going to be drawn to the Riff Raff etc. But any PAF clone is going to give that sound through the right amp.
I'm not dissing BKP's by the way, I have one in my LPJ and I think it's great, I'm just not sure you need so many variations to obtain what is a fairly standard tone.

You seem to be assuming that people are choosing pickups trying to immitate a tone.

I dont think thats often the case.

"I want my guitar to sound exactly like Pages in Black Dog"

Nah. Rare, that.

People go for a sound in their head, and the BK names are a characterfull, kinda humourous guide to the sorts of sound that you can get with the pickup. People add it all up and make their choice.

I mean, I play death metal on, amongst other things, a miracle man. And I didnt choose it for the name. Go figure.

[Kilby]

I think screamindaisy sums up what I thought anyway.

I think the idea of the BK pickup naming was to imply (not emulate) the vibe of the pickups which happened to have their own personalitys.

Before the days of automatic winders & stuff every person winding a pickup would do it the way they thought was right.

Not only that but they thought nothing about changing material specs on the fly.

You will hear that in old strat pickups one particular workers are more highly treasured over others (Abagale Yarra or something like that I think, somebody will correct me)

In those days you could get a real honey or a dog, where as in later years almost everything was equally unimpressive. I remember reading interviews about Hendrix testing practically every strat in town to get one that he liked the sound of.

Rob...

[ftwizard]

OK, but do you think there is definite niche for each variation, or would one type cover all.

[gingataff]

BKP produce 15 different types of humbucker (I'm saying a Mule is one type even though the bridge and neck are different) whereas DM produce 25 types (again not includng neck versions) and SD again 25 standard non-custom models, infact DM make 7 types of pickup with the word PAF in the name!

So from a commercial perspective there's certainly a market but I don't think there's overkill with the variations on the PAF theme at BKP, every variation has it's place...  Wouldn't it be like saying you only need one guitar to get any sound you want?

[MDV]

OK, but do you think there is definite niche for each variation, or would one type cover all.

Pass. On the whole at least.

You'd have to as a customer that has tried most to all of them. And then you'd get a biased answer because they likely wouldnt have bothered doing that if they werent rather enthuiastic about the different characters of different pickups/guitar sounds.

And anyone that hasnt is obviously someone that is satisfied with a close-enough sound to whatever they wanted to achieve.

So basically it depends on the guitarist in question.

Personally, I use:
Warpig
Ceramic WP
MM
Cold Sweat
Uber 23k double screw pole MM
Irish tours
Uber trilogies

Plus a bunch of other pickups.

And I dont listen to Ozzy, sabbath, or malmsteen and I dont even know what the cold sweat is named after (I do listen to Rory Gallagher though). I went for those to achieve a sound in my head derived from all the music I listen to and tones I've heard and used in person.

I do appreciate the differences between each one and go for the guitars they're in based on the character of the tone, but recognise that for example there are 4 very powerfull bridge metal buckers there and many poeple would say they do the same job.

Thats kind of true. But to me its just no fun. Theres enough differences in the tones for me see a different character in each, and I like that.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is if youre satisfied with one sound that approximates many, then fine. If you want many specific sounds, also fine.

[screamingdaisy]

OK, but do you think there is definite niche for each variation, or would one type cover all.

I think the answer is a bit of yes and a bit of no.

I think that if you were looking for a vintage output PAF style pickup and all that was offered was the Mule you'd probably get it an be happy.

However, since he offers three different variations you can choose what flavour of PAF you want.  Do you want softer and more rounded?  Or perhalps something with a touch more mids?  They're all filling the same niche, but they're filling it in slightly different ways.

 and I dont even know what the cold sweat is named after (I do listen to Rory Gallagher though).

I'm told the Cold Sweat is similar (though not exactly the same) as the 70s era Super Distortion.  If you look at it's DC and it's description, it kinda makes sense.

Speaking of descriptions, does anyone else find the descriptions on the product pages a little.....I don't know......undescriptive?

[3th3r]

But any PAF clone is going to give that sound through the right amp.

OMG, don't repeat this blasphemy in a gathering of vintage Les Paul owners!!!
They might beat up on you with the nearest PAF clone  

It appears you haven't spent enough time in forums discussing the minutiae of vintage PAF tone. Some people can hear, or think they can hear, differences in the type of magnet wire insulation, and in the type of nickel in the pickup covers.