any good fast legato players on this board?

[Crazy_Joe]

I don't think one is better than the other, they are all good at what they do, but they have completely different styles so no-one is better imo, they are all good.

[CJ]

yeah i like jake, but you can't tell me he wrote more memorable riffs and solos... not a chance. you're saying killer of giants was memorable? mr. crowley, crazy train, flying high again, over the mountain?

[jt]

:D Calling a guitarist a band player is the most condensending phrase i think i`ve come across on the boards ever. [ its at this point TO will post something up that i`ve said  :P ]

The quotes for the likes of Hendrix, Santana etc are frankly dumb. Did they have singing in there songs ? so guitar wise they were just band players to.

You have to remember Context. It allways easy to knock something or someone years later & even easier to miss the point entirley. The secret is Context. For those of us that were there & i was RR is one of the greatest guitar players ever. Period.

Why ? Context. Every body & i mean everybody thought Ozzy would form another version of the Sabs. What he actually did was find a young inspiring guitar player who played more like Schenker than EVH but had the flair & style of the new young American guitar players. British guitar players were very very blues based, US guitar players had moved beyond that & were playing with great flair & pernash. RR didn`t sound anything like Iommi he didn`t play like him either & the songs structures were not the same as the Sabs. This back in 1980 was a huge revelation. VH were the only other band "Out There" but EVH playing was so alienating from other players it almost appeared he was from another world. RR proved it was no fluke. Listen to VH 1st album then listen to Blizzard Of Oz theres no camparision they are both very different playing styles & song structure from each other both have something to say.

There was a survey taken in the late 80`s to find the funneist comedian ever. They only asked comedians to vote they did & overwhelmingly they voted for......Charlie Chaplin. The general public including the press couldn`t believe it i mean CC just isn`t funney. So Rowan Atkinson was dispatched to do an interview on TV to explain this strange decsion. He explained that before CC comedy was done a particular way but when CC came along he changed all that. From that moment on everybody did comedy the CC way, the problem was that we`d all grown up watching the comedians that had been inspired by CC so by the time we`d seen CC himself we`d seen it all before & therefore we didn`t find him [ CC] funny. RR was one of these types. Before him we all viewed things a certain way, he along with EVH changed our perspectives & now we all think about guitar playing in a different way.

 :D  8)

[dave_mc]

good post jt, agreed.

like when people slag off clapton, page, or hendrix (heck even evh or randy) because they're boring and they've heard it all before. They've heard it all before because those players are the ones who popularised it!

[Afghan Dave]

jt - THAT is an inspired post... 100% agree.

[indysmith]

jt's hit the nail on the head. i realised this upon reading an article written by someone who had just bought the first Van Halen album. It must have been incredible; having nothing like it to compare it to beforehand - no benchmark.

I'm waiting for my generation's new amazing benchmark player to come along... I'm kinda banking on it being me.

[Kilby]

Thank you JT

I was never an Ozzy fan, but way back then when you heard RR play you knew something important happening (you didn't have to like it to recognise the fact)

I also get tired hearing people say "I saw a video once and he made a mistake, so he is sh1te." Everybody has an off night.

Having seen Sabbath 3 times in the early 80s I really feel I have the right to say that Mr Iommi is cr@p and shouldn't even be in a pub band. However in reality I know that isn't the case and have enough sense to keep my trap shut. (hint)

[Pauldem]

You have to remember Context. It allways easy to knock something or someone years later & even easier to miss the point entirley. The secret is Context. For those of us that were there & i was RR is one of the greatest guitar players ever. Period.

Why ? Context. Every body & i mean everybody thought Ozzy would form another version of the Sabs. What he actually did was find a young inspiring guitar player who played more like Schenker than EVH but had the flair & style of the new young American guitar players. British guitar players were very very blues based, US guitar players had moved beyond that & were playing with great flair & pernash. RR didn`t sound anything like Iommi he didn`t play like him either & the songs structures were not the same as the Sabs. This back in 1980 was a huge revelation. VH were the only other band "Out There" but EVH playing was so alienating from other players it almost appeared he was from another world. RR proved it was no fluke. Listen to VH 1st album then listen to Blizzard Of Oz theres no camparision they are both very different playing styles & song structure from each other both have something to say.

Well I was born in 1978, so I wasn't there in the heat of all these new guitar developments. Does that mean that anything I say about RR will carry zero weight, agains't somebody like yourself who was lucky enough to be part of that scene?

I'd like to think I was brought up with guitar the right way, with my father exposing me to all the greatest exponents of guitar from the late 60's and early 70's. From Alvin lee of Ten years after making my eyes bleed at Woodstock to Mr Zappas Peaches. I appreciate and love guitar playing, so I know that Hendrix/Clapton/Page are the holy trinity and there legacy is incredibly important. So my question is why is RR so highly regarded? It can't just be that he was the only person playing feedback solo's or mixing classical guitar in with his lead.

Judas Priest were in existence as were Iron Maiden sporting great lead players. Uli Jon Roth and Schenker across the Scorpions and UFO are others of note. I know that Punk was in full swing but Heavy metal was still available.

Van Halen came to the fore in 1977, so had 3 years before Blizzard hit the stores. So I can't believe there where no other players out there other than EVH and RR trying new things. Maybe this was the case in the UK, but there must have been more in the US. In my time line, EVH came along in 1977 and by 1982 had re-invented a mass of guitar. He was the next inline to the guitar god throne.

By the time I came across Randy I had already heard EVH and Jake and Yngwie, so there was nothing that blew me away and I doubt that Randy's playing directly influenced any of the above players. In my opinion Randy is remembered so fondly due to his tragically short life. I'm not saying he was a bad player and I'm not saying that he hasn't inspired people. I simply don't think his legacy carries the weight people are suggesting.

[Afghan Dave]

I simply don't think his legacy carries the weight people are suggesting.

I can only disagree.

There is no way to resolve this discussion but hey, that's art for ya... it's not science. :roll:

[Woogie]

yeah i like jake, but you can't tell me he wrote more memorable riffs and solos... not a chance. you're saying killer of giants was memorable? mr. crowley, crazy train, flying high again, over the mountain?

Mr Crowley is awesome as is Crazy Train, I`m not that keen on the other two, but Jake took those songs to another level imo. I find Jake's playing slightly darker and more eerie which I really like. This isn't a Randy bash as Randy is awesome, it just happens that Jake pleases my ears more so :).

[Pauldem]

I can only disagree.

There is no way to resolve this discussion but hey, that's art for ya... it's not science. :roll:

Alas I fear you're right, it truly is preferential. There's no point in attacking anyones hero and everyone has the right to love whomever they dig. I just don't like to think I'm doing a diservice to people who should be respected. I just need to know why I should.

But if anyone ever said Ty Tabor was Jive, Id have to cut em!!

[FELINEGUITARS]

In an interesting sideline to this it is possible to not like something because it gets way too  much exposure.

I have always thought that Hendrix sucked, and whilst I am entitled to that opinion I know that in so many ways I am 100% wrong.
Hendrix in his day so turned guitar playing on its head that players are often said to be pre-Hendrix or post-Hendrix.
And remember that this is the age of guitar heroes with Beck, Page, Clapton, Santana, Peter Green etc

The same thing happened in tha late 70s early 80s with Eddie.
There were no shortage of great players then and we can all name a few that we prefer to Eddie, but in many ways just like Hendrix in his day Eddie cast the longest shadow.

Often in the eye of the greater public the guitarist who gets remembered maybe is remembered because of the band they were in and that the music was accessible to many.
Clapton is typical and so is Brian May (who remains my favourite)

Many guitar heroes of this kind become the ones who make non players pick up a guitar - they may not be as technically proficient but their band  and the contribution they made to that band made you want to be a guitarist too.

Think of Ace Frehley and Kiss - Ace was hardly the greatest (although he was great in Kiss), but he made so many kids want to play guitar and go on to become guitar gods that you can't ever overlook his influence.
Same with Angus Young  (although Angus was a bit better player than Ace)

I like Steve Vai , Becker Friedman etc etc but they were not the guys who made me play air guitar as a teenager -mthat was more May, Frehley, Schenker, Lynch, Van Halen and Rhoads (and a whole load of band players)

Edit : My main gripe with Hendrix was not that I didn't like what he did on guitar but that so many people I knew went on and on and on about him and it just irritated the hell out me  to the point that i couldn't listen to him and enjoy what he did without being reminded of the people who couldn't shut up about him. That is why I started off by saying about over exposure. It has taken me a long time to get over the resistance I felt due to having it rammed down my throat. I try to retain a fairly open mind about most things other than Jazz  :minigun:  

[Kilby]

Feline:

although I don't agree with your opinion of Jimi but I can understand how people don't like his playing (I'm only a mild Hendrix fan anyway) and would never dream of arguing about it with you (or anybody else) about it. There is no reason to argue as you have not been aggressive dissmissive or generally rude (which usually the sole reason for any bickering here, it's not the opinion it's the attitude)


On the original subject of legato, I have to agree with Gingataff regarding Alan Holdsworths playing and I love the tone that he gets (I didn't realise that he used a slightly different technique.) Once again he serves the track he is playing (if that makes him a band player then I wish there where more band players.)

Though I can appreciate technique, to me it's only a means to an end and if it dosn't serve the track then it's redundant (don't start me about 99% of tapping)

Theres equally interesting players with equally impressive playing techniques (or used techniques long before the usual suspects) such as Wilco Johnson, Mick Green, Ollie Halsall, Steve Hackett, Stanley Jordan never get mentioned simply because theyre not into speed for the sake of it (or simply in big name bands)

Rob...

In the bass area Tony Levin (also Stanley Clarke & Mick Karn) whom we all forget about

[Kilby]

Please ignore the start of my previous message as it looks like I'm bitching @ Jonathan, this was not intended (but to illustrate)

The proxy I'm working through prevents me from posting or editing messages (I have to use the quote button to actually post a message  :roll: till I find a work around)

[CJ]

You have to remember Context. It allways easy to knock something or someone years later & even easier to miss the point entirley. The secret is Context. For those of us that were there & i was RR is one of the greatest guitar players ever. Period.

Why ? Context. Every body & i mean everybody thought Ozzy would form another version of the Sabs. What he actually did was find a young inspiring guitar player who played more like Schenker than EVH but had the flair & style of the new young American guitar players. British guitar players were very very blues based, US guitar players had moved beyond that & were playing with great flair & pernash. RR didn`t sound anything like Iommi he didn`t play like him either & the songs structures were not the same as the Sabs. This back in 1980 was a huge revelation. VH were the only other band "Out There" but EVH playing was so alienating from other players it almost appeared he was from another world. RR proved it was no fluke. Listen to VH 1st album then listen to Blizzard Of Oz theres no camparision they are both very different playing styles & song structure from each other both have something to say.

Well I was born in 1978, so I wasn't there in the heat of all these new guitar developments. Does that mean that anything I say about RR will carry zero weight, agains't somebody like yourself who was lucky enough to be part of that scene?

I'd like to think I was brought up with guitar the right way, with my father exposing me to all the greatest exponents of guitar from the late 60's and early 70's. From Alvin lee of Ten years after making my eyes bleed at Woodstock to Mr Zappas Peaches. I appreciate and love guitar playing, so I know that Hendrix/Clapton/Page are the holy trinity and there legacy is incredibly important. So my question is why is RR so highly regarded? It can't just be that he was the only person playing feedback solo's or mixing classical guitar in with his lead.

Judas Priest were in existence as were Iron Maiden sporting great lead players. Uli Jon Roth and Schenker across the Scorpions and UFO are others of note. I know that Punk was in full swing but Heavy metal was still available.

Van Halen came to the fore in 1977, so had 3 years before Blizzard hit the stores. So I can't believe there where no other players out there other than EVH and RR trying new things. Maybe this was the case in the UK, but there must have been more in the US. In my time line, EVH came along in 1977 and by 1982 had re-invented a mass of guitar. He was the next inline to the guitar god throne.

By the time I came across Randy I had already heard EVH and Jake and Yngwie, so there was nothing that blew me away and I doubt that Randy's playing directly influenced any of the above players. In my opinion Randy is remembered so fondly due to his tragically short life. I'm not saying he was a bad player and I'm not saying that he hasn't inspired people. I simply don't think his legacy carries the weight people are suggesting.

for one, Randy was one of the main reasons why Ozzy became one of the greatest bands of all time. Many people thought ozzy would suck without sabbath and even ozzy contributes his new bands success to randy. surely, this contributes to his legacy? think about it, many of the greatest guitarists are great because their band that they started was great.