Username: Password:

Author Topic: NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state  (Read 8306 times)

jt

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 1575
NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2006, 02:00:35 AM »
:D Ok Genocidal you asked for it !   :lol:

1st right now any & all bar people can ask to see some form of ID. So why dont they ? Just because an ID card is introduced doesn`t mean it cant or wont be forged. Making it as redundant as Driving licences, passports etc. The real problem is it`ll only need to be an ID card that criminals, Terrorists & anti socials will need to fraud. Its allready been reported & stated on "Question Time" by MP`s themselves that there is allready a huge blackmarket quoting prices for these cards [ 1,500 per card ] was the figure touted. Criminals wont care who they sell these cards to, this will actually hinder the fight against terroism & wont stop a single 16/17yr old drinking in a pub/club.

As for the argument that other organisations hold more info about you than the govenment its true. As a labour MP stated. "Tescos no`s more about you than we [ Govenment ] do". The difference is YOU choose to give that info to other organisations & your under no threat of Fines/imprisonment if you dont. YOU have freedom of choice. The ID card will have none. It`ll be a criminal offence not to have or carry one.

As for the argument that says politicians no what there doing, Are you F***ing joking ! There`s only 2 MPs i`ve heard in the last 20 yrs that have made any sense at all. The politicians are only concerned with power. They dont give a flying F**k about me, you our familys, friends they only want the power, & not to do good but to rake in as much money inorder to fill there egos. Any one who trusts a politician in this day & age is simply a total F***ing A**hole. Be smarter, ask questions of them & dont let them flob you off with some bulls**t awnser.

Oh & by the way you should read what you write before claiming somebody has misunderstood your words I quote

"What makes the average uninterested, uneducated and unintelligent member of the public"

There your words  not mine.

 :D  8)
God I could do with a Gin & Tonic !

Johnny Mac

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 5841
    • Ultimate Guitar Profile
NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2006, 09:34:28 AM »
For me I don't want ID cards because I don't trust the government. They mislead us on virtually everything these days and I don't see why this issue would b any different.
Warpig, MQ,
Miracle Man-Trilogy Suite, Cold Sweats, Black Guards, Rebel Yells & Irish Tours!

headtheball

  • Lightweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 624
NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2006, 10:57:50 AM »
As I'm sure Dave_mc and the other Northern Ireland born or resident folk will tell you, it was perfectly normal to be stopped, searched and have ID demanded (let's face it, twas hardly a request) on a fairly regular basis (even moreso if you lived in the "wrong" area, or had the "wrong" surname) here, right up to the mid nineties from both police and troops. Speaking from personal experience, it didn't make a lick of difference to the terrorism situation. ID cards seem to be a backpedal into these days.

The "Nothing to Hide, Nothing to Fear" argument is one that really, really gets my goat. Leaving aside the obvious impliction therein (that ID card refuseniks are inherently crims), it's a misunderstanding of the anti ID movement at a fundamental level. I don't "fear" having to carry ID (As stated above, I did for many years), or think my criminal mastermindery will be exposed by it. I simply don't want my details stored on a database which is beyond the usual protections afforded to me by law. That government minister, or mp wittering on about "Tesco's Know more about you than the Government" misses a critical point. You can demand your removal from the tesco's database, or see any and all records relating to yourself. Somehow, I doubt such basic protections will extend to the ID database.
Evil, Evil, Evil...

38thBeatle

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6098
    • http://www.myspace.com/alteregoukband
NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2006, 06:00:07 PM »
I was kind of promising myself that I would not add to this anymore simply because I have so many thoughts about it that I cannot possibly represent what I think in concise one liners. The information to be held on the database, whether you believe it to be no more than what is currently available or whether you believe it to be more than that, is  going to be on one database and all kinds of people are going to be able access it.I do not want someone somewhere having my medical records at their disposal for example. Having read a lot on this subject I am absulutely not convinced that the security is sufficient and, of course, we do not know what type of Government we have to come in future years and what may seem to be fairly innocuous now can so quickly be turned to something more sinister. Totalitarian regimes like to keep very detailed records of their citizens-who they are, what they do and where they go and why-this is not scaremongering, it is historical fact. I do not participate in so called loyalty cards because of my suspicions about the usage of the data they obtain-I forego the few pence "benefits". I accept that others may not be as obsessive as I am about their privacy and if they are happy to tell all then good for them-just don't force me to. I also suspect the postal voting system-typically poorly thought-out and badly executed and voting preferences cannot be guaranteed to be anonymous-a fundemental principle in a democratic system. Who is to say that voting records will not find their way onto this system and if one votes for the "wrong"party then this could be used against you.Maybe this seems far fetched but look around you and see that civil liberties are constantly being taken away in the interests of security.Extreme political parties are being encouraged in the political vacuum and are preying upon fear and ignorance. Anyway, I have said way too much and I apologise to all for the lengthy ramble.
Send three and fourpence we're going to a dance
BKP's: Apache, Country Boy, Slowhands.

Johnny Mac

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 5841
    • Ultimate Guitar Profile
NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2006, 06:58:54 PM »
Good points Steve! I don't have those 'loyalty cards' either, for the same reasons.
Warpig, MQ,
Miracle Man-Trilogy Suite, Cold Sweats, Black Guards, Rebel Yells & Irish Tours!

genocidal tendencies

  • Guest
NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2006, 08:21:04 PM »
Quote from: 38thBeatle
Genocidal, I really do not follow your reasoning-sorry. The "law" is not a singular piece of legislation. You obviously do not like the concept of democracy and I can accept that a pure democracy has yet to be devised but even our flawed system is, at least in my view, preferable to unelected dicatorships-just my view you understand. Getting back to the thread, I think the thing I object to with the proposals that exist for identity cards is that the information stored will be in one place and I simply do not believe that the capability exists  to restrict what is on it to those who have a legitimate reason to access it.


Yes, I am aware that the law isn't a single piece of legislation. If you hadn't noticed, that wasn't really the point I was making.

The same could be said of any bank's computer system. Presumably you do have a bank account?

Quote from: jt
1st right now any & all bar people can ask to see some form of ID. So why dont they ? Just because an ID card is introduced doesn`t mean it cant or wont be forged. Making it as redundant as Driving licences, passports etc. The real problem is it`ll only need to be an ID card that criminals, Terrorists & anti socials will need to fraud. Its allready been reported & stated on "Question Time" by MP`s themselves that there is allready a huge blackmarket quoting prices for these cards [ 1,500 per card ] was the figure touted. Criminals wont care who they sell these cards to, this will actually hinder the fight against terroism & wont stop a single 16/17yr old drinking in a pub/club.


Yes, you're quite right, every single 16/17 year old in Britain will gladly spend 1500 on a fake ID. Pubs don't ID because they'd lose a lot of customers and because it's a pain in the hole dealing with thousands of different types of ID cards, and a lot of adults don't carry ID anyway. Common sense would therefore seem to dictate that if everyone carried ID and if there was a single type of card, more pubs would ID people.

Again, I don't care about terrorism. It's never going to be serious enough that it's actually worth bothering ourselves about. Not here, anyway.

Quote from: jt
As for the argument that other organisations hold more info about you than the govenment its true. As a labour MP stated. "Tescos no`s more about you than we [ Govenment ] do". The difference is YOU choose to give that info to other organisations & your under no threat of Fines/imprisonment if you dont. YOU have freedom of choice. The ID card will have none. It`ll be a criminal offence not to have or carry one.


That really is a piss weak difference. So $%&#ing what? Back to banks, what are you going to say if some hacker manages to empty your life savings? "I'm not upset, I chose that bank"? No, you're not. Why? Because it happened to you, and that's the only person you really care about. If 59,999,999 people put themselves in danger of their own free will then that's ok, for the pure and simple reason that you're not one of them.

Quote from: jt
As for the argument that says politicians no what there doing, Are you F***ing joking ! There`s only 2 MPs i`ve heard in the last 20 yrs that have made any sense at all. The politicians are only concerned with power. They dont give a flying F**k about me, you our familys, friends they only want the power, & not to do good but to rake in as much money inorder to fill there egos. Any one who trusts a politician in this day & age is simply a total F***ing A**hole. Be smarter, ask questions of them & dont let them flob you off with some bulls**t awnser.


And yet you can't supply a sliver of a shred of evidence to support any of that conspiracist cr@p. You don't know what you're talking about. It's as simple as that.

Oh, and look up "average" in a dictionary, then look up "every" and see if you can notice a slight difference.

38th just seems to be ranting, there's no substance at all to that last post.

38thBeatle

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6098
    • http://www.myspace.com/alteregoukband
NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2006, 10:14:58 PM »
Genocidal-I am not going to respond to you except to say you have your views, I respect that-I just found your post very disjointed and confused but I am not going to get into a slanging match ok.
Send three and fourpence we're going to a dance
BKP's: Apache, Country Boy, Slowhands.

jt

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 1575
NO2ID: stop ID cards and the database state
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2006, 02:34:33 AM »
:D Ha Ha Ha !

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Who said anything about conspiracy ? Your the one now Not ready the posts correctly. I merely stated a belief. There`s no conspiracy about it. Take a look at the Iraq War. I`m one of the smug B*rst*ds as i was opposed to it right from the start. When Tory Blair stated he wouldn`t put troops in to Iraq unless the report came back from  MI5/6 stating there were Weapons Of Mass Destruction i told one of my mates "you wait & see i bet it says exactly what he wants it to say & i bet its a pack of lies" was i wrong ? How many MP`s stood up & shouted we need to go to war in order to remove a dictator ? Yet how many of them wont send troops into Zimbabwe ? were a dictator is killing tens of thousands & is slowly destroying his country.

As i said YOU choose whether you give info over to Tesco`s etc it`s your choice. If you make a bad choice its YOUR responsibility not mine. When your bank account gets ripped your bank is responsible for your losses. My father recently had his account ripped. when he went to the bank & reported it the cashier stated that the level of fraud had trebled since the introduction of chip & pin. How ? we were all told that chip & pin would make our accounts safer ! We were all told that covering the country in surveillance cameras would reduce crime. It hasn`t. All its actually done in some cases is record the crimes being committed & lead to the emergence of "Hoodies" [ this is in response to the former police man that replied to this thread]

Oh & the 2 MP`s i`ve heard talk any sense at all in the Last 20yrs are
Ian Duncan Smith - for his wide ranging & meticulous report on the entire anti social, poverty, low wage, chav, hoodie etc As he said on Five Live himself, "This report is going to take some serious rethinking by politicians of all parties, As the problems are wide ranging & you cant deal with one & not the others "

Jon Crudas - The Labour MP for Dagenham. Who has stated that "No one who earns less than 40,000 [ per year ] has any political representation from any of the party's " He is a regular MP guest on five live  & is deeply critical of his own party's total desertion [ his words not mine ] of working people. AS a side note he is running for the deputy Leader position of his own party. It`ll be interesting to see if there is any credible opposition to him.

Oh & to be average means to be the Majority otherwise you'd be a Minority & therefore not the Average. Check out the Theory of Mediocrity

 :D  8)
God I could do with a Gin & Tonic !