Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Infliktor on March 22, 2009, 10:05:28 PM
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Ok in theory when you compare a mahagony Les Paul or PRS with a maple cap thats say 8.5 pounds versus 10 pounds, what kind of tone difference will be heard?
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I find the heavier guitars fizzier, not as clear and defined, and too 'pushy' sounding. The lighter guitars have more air and space in their tone.
In my opinion of course :)
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i think it varies too much to give specific answers
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i think it varies too much to give specific answers
This 8)
There are no rules, every bit of wood is unique.
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Yeah, guitars are unpredictable beasts. A heavy guitar can sound plinky and "dead" acoustically, but really sing when it's amplified.
And light guitars can sound zingy and resonant, and sometimes that seems to translate when plugged in, but sometimes it doesn't.
It's more about comfort. I don't like heavy guitars because... they weigh too much. :wink:
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well, with the really heavy ones you have the added tonal "thump" of me losing my balance and falling over... EDIT: seriously, though, i agree with the "too hard to predict" answers already given...
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Yeah, guitars are unpredictable beasts. A heavy guitar can sound plinky and "dead" acoustically, but really sing when it's amplified.
And light guitars can sound zingy and resonant, and sometimes that seems to translate when plugged in, but sometimes it doesn't.
It's more about comfort. I don't like heavy guitars because... they weigh too much. :wink:
I think that's really true, one of the best sounding guitars I ever owned was a Hamer with p90s, it was heavy and pretty dead unplugged but just wailed plugged in.
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Yeah, guitars are unpredictable beasts. A heavy guitar can sound plinky and "dead" acoustically, but really sing when it's amplified.
And light guitars can sound zingy and resonant, and sometimes that seems to translate when plugged in, but sometimes it doesn't.
It's more about comfort. I don't like heavy guitars because... they weigh too much. :wink:
I think that's really true, one of the best sounding guitars I ever owned was a Hamer with p90s, it was heavy and pretty dead unplugged but just wailed plugged in.
+1 - that's what my 12lb Greco was like
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do you think this might be as a result of nice pickups?
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Imo it's going to matter but changing pups has never transformed a guitar into something else for me.
I personally think the pickup can reinforce-shape what the wood rather than dictating the sound but I know alot of players that will say an electric guitars tone is 100% because of the pickups too...
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I dunno about the weight thing. I've heard it both ways. Theres good sound logic to heavier guitars having more low end, and sometimes it works out that way and sometimes it doesnt. Theres a lot more than just weight going on!
On guitars + pickups - its a combination thing. A pickup can only pick up whats in the vibration of the string right above it, but it picks it up in a certain way and with certain frequency biasses, I suppose you could call them. Sometimes changing pickups has little to no effect, sometimes its vast.
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I tend to like lighter guitars. It's not a comfort issue for me really; lift some weights and eat some steak and you'll be fine, like Zakk Wylde said (take this with humor :D I know that people who have hurt their back or neck can have painful experiences with heavy guitars like Les Pauls).
Well, back to the weight. Like was said, every piece of wood is different. But in general, when the body is GOOD QUALITY and light in weight, it's easier for the strings to make the wood vibrate. Simple physics. And hence, more of the woods tone is brought out. I believe that is why I usually find the heavy guitars lacking in personality. They don't resonate that well. It's easy to make a lighter guitar feed back in a musical way.
My opinion, once again. And of course, you have to take into account that some wood species are naturally heavier than others, like maple vs. swamp ash.
On the neck, I think stiff and hard woods are the ones to go for.
-Zaned
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This is the perennial question isn't it? Weight (density or SG) is only one tiny factor. You could find a bit of swamp ash and a some poplar for instance that have a very similar specific gravity but the swamp ash is light because it has a very open structure between much harder strata making it very stiff for it's weight, poplar is light because of it's slightly pulpy consistency and and tends to have a stringy fibrous grain structure. This makes them acoustically very different. Light weight woods with good hard strata like swamp ash transmit vibration very well and have a lesser tendency to loose top, woods with soft pulpy strata, whether they are heavy or not, will tend to absorb vibration and in these cases the top end is the first to go.
As Wez and Co have said the variables involved mean you virtually have to treat each piece of wood as a separate entity and treat the properties of each as mere trends and not absolutes.
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I think that it's less to do with how heavy they are, and more to do with what colour they are.
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The sound boards on an acoustic instrument resonate to produce audible levels of sound the wood and characteristics are hugely significant and a great deal depends on how thin the top is and what kind of wood but more significant is the luthier as they can in pinciple 'shape out' their tone from any wood.
For an electric guitar the stings moving in and perturbing a magnetic field are the principle source of the sound. The shape of that magnetic field and the way the strings move relative too it will be the predominant source of the sound and the character of it. Energy transitions from the field to the pickup coils will only depend on the string and pickup motion.
The ability of the neck and body to not disipate the energy or to move it into other modes of vibration within the string will strongly influence the character of the instrument and it is likely again that the structure and the luthier will have more influence on these mode changes than the wood used. The type of pickup and its relative positioning must make a huge difference.
In a solid body guitar the relative motion of the body vis-a-vis the pickups will be tiny the twisting and flexing of the neck will be much greater and therefore have a larger impact. In this sence the way the body holds on to the neck will be pivotal in affecting tone and character.
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The sound extracted from an electric guitar is the disturbance in the magnetic field of the pickups, caused by the string. That is correct, yes. And the pickup shapes that sound according to its personality, yes.
But the woods do matter greatly. Strings by themselves only have a high frequency pitch to them. Their job is to provoc wood vibration, through vibration transmitters like the frets, nut, saddles and bridge. That vibration RETURNS through the same transmitters and brings a new overtone to the strings that is sympathetic to the wood tones. And THAT combination is what the pickups are hearing. And that's why we hear the difference between body and neck woods also in electric guitars. And the heavier the wood, the harder it is for the string to provoc tone wood vibration and that sympathetic vibration.
And yes, the construction (neck angle, scale, neck joint type) has a great affect too.
-Zaned
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I think that it's less to do with how heavy they are, and more to do with what colour they are.
The type and colour of the strap you use has a big affect too Bump - I've heard that straplocks can be tone-suckers because there isn't enough body/strap interraction, so I never use them (can get a bit expensive on the luthier bills if you're not careful though...)
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White volume knobs and cream tone knobs open the guitar up a whole lot too
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tone is all in the fingers - thats why alot of todays guitarists are painting their fingernails black
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:lol:
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But the woods do matter greatly. Strings by themselves only have a high frequency pitch to them. Their job is to provoc wood vibration, through vibration transmitters like the frets, nut, saddles and bridge
And yes, the construction (neck angle, scale, neck joint type) has a great affect too.
-Zaned
The vibrations in the wood are dependent on the energy from the string and the mass of the wood - string = light weight very little energy = body = massive object = very little vibration - very little vibration = tiny effect. Believe me the physics mean the only way a tone wood can impart a lot of character is if it is light and thin. All the effects you are hearing are down to the way the sting behaves on a solid body
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But the woods do matter greatly. Strings by themselves only have a high frequency pitch to them. Their job is to provoc wood vibration, through vibration transmitters like the frets, nut, saddles and bridge
And yes, the construction (neck angle, scale, neck joint type) has a great affect too.
-Zaned
The vibrations in the wood are dependent on the energy from the string and the mass of the wood - string = light weight very little energy = body = massive object = very little vibration - very little vibration = tiny effect. Believe me the physics mean the only way a tone wood can impart a lot of character is if it is light and thin. All the effects you are hearing are down to the way the sting behaves on a solid body
If you really want to get into the physics you'll have to open your horizons to a lot more than just the concepts of mass. Complex structures like those presented in various species of timber have many varied resonant characteristics; only a few of which are governed by their mass. Guitar bodies do not resonate en mass like a piece of cast iron does; they "filter" sound, emphasizing some frequencies, killing others and generating harmonics. Use a guitar tuner with an internal mic to tune your acoustic and you'll see that occasionally your tuner will register the fourth or even the fifth harmonic, this will also occasionally happen on a solid bodied guitar as well . This is a symptom of what the tonewoods in your guitar are doing to the root note.
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Has anyone ever put all of this to scientific enquiry?
I mean, we all talk about tone wood, construction etc. And there are builders and manufacturers that do things in a particular way, possibly because that's how they've always been done, possibly because because that's the best way of doing it.
How could one measure the "tone" of wood, scientifically? Make various slabs of different woods with fretboards and pickups mounted? Then a blind (or double blind) test?
Personally, I'm pretty sure that construction and woods must have an impact, particularly neck wood. However, I'm also a firm believer in the human psyche, in that when we see a Les Paul (or, God forbid, a Telecaster!!) we expect it to sound a particular way. When we see a maple fretboard we expect that to sound different to a rosewood one. I'm not saying that there are NO differences, just that I believe we can convince ourselves of differences where none necessarily exist...
Mark.
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Oh, and Andy - that stuff about straplocks is just crazy talk.
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:lol:
You wait, people will be quoting me in years to come...
Just doin my bit to subvert the interweb :lol:
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I am not saying there will be no vibrations through the body but their influence on the signal will be tiny. The string vibrates in many modes and will carry a large number of harmonics the field effects on the magnets will also generate harmonic and complex tones as the field is complex close to the magnets and the coupling between the two magnet and string is also complex. The stings movement will not be uniform it will vibrate and it precess with osiclations intially in several modes on the first pluck settling down to a more stable group resonance and then settling down to a decayed clean resonance. This sequence of mode changes is what gives the characteristic tone of the instrument and it is all about how the supporting structures neck body and bridge impact those changes.
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I dont wish to get into a mass debate (he he ;) ) about the effect of wood on a guitars tone but i dont think you need to play many guitars to know that the wood makes a difference.
take a factory like fender, gibson or PRS producing fairly accurate re-creations of the same guitar over and over again. The only difference between each guitar in the same line is the actual piece of wood used. This is different because its hard to control the density, stiffness and weight of pieces of wood. Nature has other ideas.
So anyway, lots of identical guitars produced to exacting tolerances (in most cases)... and whaddayaknow , they all sound a bit different... you only have to play a couple of supposedly identical guitars to notice this!!
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Edit: to braddock
No, their influence is large.
The guitar is a closed loop sympathetic resonance system - vibrations setup in the string cause vibrations in the body and neck that cause vibrations in the string. Ergo frequencies that can exist in both the string and the body and neck (since the string is capable of far more resonant modes than the guitar, this is quite few) are boosted in the string by constuctive interference with the resonance of the guitar and those that cant exist in one or the other are not permitted or severely diminished in the loop - the dominant modes in the string become the resonant modes of the guitar.
By your logic 2 guitars with the same strings on, both the same scale and both with the same bridge and nut would have (very nearly) the same sound. Sorry, but thats bollocks. The woods of the body, the construction, the shape, they all affect the sound very strongly.
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Ahhh, go on Wez - I like a mass debate as well as the next man...
I still think that, even in mass produced guitars, there are many, many other variables that might make a difference - different glue in the neck joint, electrics wired differently etc. It would be very hard to pin tonal differences down to wood alone, wouldn't it?
Was that too many woods/woulds?
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What do you consider heavy? I have a 10-lbs Soltero and 9.6 lbs Les Paul, and neither one are breaking my back. Both sound very different from each other both are single cut style guitars. Personally, I think the weight adds to the tone especially as the wood ages and is exposed to sonic bombardment. However,I am not a physicist or a tone wood expert.
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I still think that, even in mass produced guitars, there are many, many other variables that might make a difference - different glue in the neck joint, electrics wired differently etc. It would be very hard to pin tonal differences down to wood alone, wouldn't it?
how about 2 guitars made in the same batch in exactly the same way with exactly the same spec and exactly the same type of wood. Of course they will sound similar, but they rarely sound the same.
its a combination of everything but when building for a certain tone I start with the woods and construction method and build up from there.... i cant just decide on the string length and gauge
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So, we need to apply scientific rigour!!!
There must be a rig that could be set up to measure different types of wood, their resonance, and the effect that this has on strings? You know, measure the dependant variable.
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I still think that, even in mass produced guitars, there are many, many other variables that might make a difference - different glue in the neck joint, electrics wired differently etc. It would be very hard to pin tonal differences down to wood alone, wouldn't it?
how about 2 guitars made in the same batch in exactly the same way with exactly the same spec and exactly the same type of wood. Of course they will sound similar, but they rarely sound the same.
its a combination of everything but when building for a certain tone I start with the woods and construction method and build up from there.... i cant just decide on the string length and gauge
I recal the exact moment I had this driven home to me, rather forcibly -
Academy of sound (previously A1 music, later sound control) manchester, oxford street - they just got a batch of epi gothics in. I had a muck about with 2 explorers.
1 - nice guitar, spanky but with depth, good strong resonance, lively, harmonics came out easy and it had good thunk. liked it
2 - dead as a $%&#ing doornail. Just a wooly boomy sustainless mess.
Checked them over thoroughly - new strings, same action, same batch out of the factory, damn near identical serial numbers even - a few digits out from one another. As close as two gutiars can get to one another and one was pretty good and one was a cricket bat with strings on. The only thing that I couldnt see that could have plausibly cause the difference was the neck join - no way to tell how much glue was in each, and if one had A LOT more and no wood:wood contact in the join that may have caused the difference, I suppose. From the outside they were the same, however.
Conclusion - the same wood species can even sound very different from one guitar to the next. This has born out repeatedly in my experience, comparing on-paper extremely similar guitars, including wood species; they often have rather different sounds.
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I still think that, even in mass produced guitars, there are many, many other variables that might make a difference - different glue in the neck joint, electrics wired differently etc. It would be very hard to pin tonal differences down to wood alone, wouldn't it?
how about 2 guitars made in the same batch in exactly the same way with exactly the same spec and exactly the same type of wood. Of course they will sound similar, but they rarely sound the same.
its a combination of everything but when building for a certain tone I start with the woods and construction method and build up from there.... i cant just decide on the string length and gauge
I recal the exact moment I had this driven home to me, rather forcibly -
Academy of sound (previously A1 music, later sound control) manchester, oxford street - they just got a batch of epi gothics in. I had a muck about with 2 explorers.
1 - nice guitar, spanky but with depth, good strong resonance, lively, harmonics came out easy and it had good thunk. liked it
2 - dead as a $%&#ing doornail. Just a wooly boomy sustainless mess.
Checked them over thoroughly - new strings, same action, same batch out of the factory, damn near identical serial numbers even - a few digits out from one another. As close as two gutiars can get to one another and one was pretty good and one was a cricket bat with strings on. The only thing that I couldnt see that could have plausibly cause the difference was the neck join - no way to tell how much glue was in each, and if one had A LOT more and no wood:wood contact in the join that may have caused the difference, I suppose. From the outside they were the same, however.
Conclusion - the same wood species can even sound very different from one guitar to the next. This has born out repeatedly in my experience, comparing on-paper extremely similar guitars, including wood species; they often have rather different sounds.
Strong anecdotal evidence I grant ye, Sir.
But!
Who made the pickups? Which machine were they wound on? Could you be sure that they were consistent in their balance and output? Indeed, were they properly adjusted?
I say thee "nay"!!!
Again, not saying that wood DOESN'T make a difference - it's obvious that it does. However, I still think that it wouldn't be too hard to take most of the variables out of the equation and get to the heart of the issue, i.e. the wood.
Mark.
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Anecdotal, yes, to you. I heard the bloody things, however!
Oh, pickups had nothing to do with it - I didnt plug them in. Variable eliminated.
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The guitar is a closed loop sympathetic resonance system - vibrations setup in the string cause vibrations in the body and neck that cause vibrations in the string. Ergo frequencies that can exist in both the string and the body and neck (since the string is capable of far more resonant modes than the guitar, this is quite few) are boosted in the string by constuctive interference with the resonance of the guitar and those that cant exist in one or the other are not permitted or severely diminished in the loop - the dominant modes in the string become the resonant modes of the guitar.
By your logic 2 guitars with the same strings on, both the same scale and both with the same bridge and nut would have (very nearly) the same sound. Sorry, but thats bollocks. The woods of the body, the construction, the shape, they all affect the sound very strongly.
that's the way i always understood it, anyway (albeit with fewer physics technical terms :oops: )- the woods will affect how the string vibrates.
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So, we need to apply scientific rigour!!!
There must be a rig that could be set up to measure different types of wood, their resonance, and the effect that this has on strings? You know, measure the dependant variable.
feel free to invest in that if you wish... it wouldnt take too much. Its not something that interests me enough to do it - but i would be interested in results derived from it
whenever i have seen people try to do something similar they have always done an admirably simple scientific job of it and tried to control all variables other than 1. basically they had tried to simplify the issue so it was easily testable.... but i havnt seen someone do it in a way i believe to be comprehensive of all the issues . at some point they realise the size of the task at hand and start ignoring variables they dont feel are important
my experience doesnt come from scientific study because i dont feel i have the time or energy for that. It comes from experience with different woods, hardware and designs... and even the same wood, hardware and designs. Its taken a while but i do believe i am at the stage where i can knock on a plank of wood and it tells me something about how suitable it will be for a particular end purpose, and i feel i can hear those inital charateristics of the plank transfered through to the final tone - hopefully it something i can develop for greater consistency.... and i aint claiming to be any kind of eric johnson.
Is it accurate and scientific?....hell no. i am not in this to prove anything about how much of a role wood plays in the guitar sound. I am in it to make guitars that sound good and intuition and some experience tells me to start with the wood!!
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Anecdotal, yes, to you. I heard the bloody things, however!
Oh, pickups had nothing to do with it - I didnt plug them in. Variable eliminated.
Well then what does it matter how different they sound unplugged? Do you play unplugged?
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feel free to invest in that if you wish...
Hah! Wez, you've seen examples of my luthiery - I'm not sure that we should be adding "cr@p workmanship" into the equation!!!
I just think that worst phrase in the English language is "just because"... I like answers!
I suspect that one of the problems is the use of the word "tone", which probably isn't the best description of what we hear. Musically speaking, "timbre" is probably a better description of what we hear - the quality of the sound that we hear. But how you measure that? That would be difficult...
Mark.
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Anecdotal, yes, to you. I heard the bloody things, however!
Oh, pickups had nothing to do with it - I didnt plug them in. Variable eliminated.
Well then what does it matter how different they sound unplugged? Do you play unplugged?
Hmm, what do you mean? That the acoustic sound doesn't matter? (and sorry if I make wrong assumptions based on your reply)
Of course it matters. Even the electric guitar is an acoustic instrument to start with. That's what we hear when we play it unplugged, the acoustic sound of that particular guitar. All the pickups do is catch the vibration of those string making the sound, and impart their own characteristics on it.
That's the first thing I listen to in any guitar..the acoustic sound. If it sounds dead (strings taken into account of course), I won't bother plugging it in.
-Zaned
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Anecdotal, yes, to you. I heard the bloody things, however!
Oh, pickups had nothing to do with it - I didnt plug them in. Variable eliminated.
Well then what does it matter how different they sound unplugged? Do you play unplugged?
Hmm, what do you mean? That the acoustic sound doesn't matter? (and sorry if I make wrong assumptions based on your reply)
Of course it matters. Even the electric guitar is an acoustic instrument to start with. That's what we hear when we play it unplugged, the acoustic sound of that particular guitar. All the pickups do is catch the vibration of those string making the sound, and impart their own characteristics on it.
That's the first thing I listen to in any guitar..the acoustic sound. If it sounds dead (strings taken into account of course), I won't bother plugging it in.
-Zaned
I'm just saying he can't make judgements on how the guitars compare without the pickups - it just doesn't make sense.
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Anecdotal, yes, to you. I heard the bloody things, however!
Oh, pickups had nothing to do with it - I didnt plug them in. Variable eliminated.
Well then what does it matter how different they sound unplugged? Do you play unplugged?
Hmm, what do you mean? That the acoustic sound doesn't matter? (and sorry if I make wrong assumptions based on your reply)
Of course it matters. Even the electric guitar is an acoustic instrument to start with. That's what we hear when we play it unplugged, the acoustic sound of that particular guitar. All the pickups do is catch the vibration of those string making the sound, and impart their own characteristics on it.
That's the first thing I listen to in any guitar..the acoustic sound. If it sounds dead (strings taken into account of course), I won't bother plugging it in.
-Zaned
Exactly.
Pickups cant pickup anything thats not in the acoustic sound of the guitar to begin with. They dont create any sound, they detect it and filter it. Like you I dont bother plugging in if the accoustic sound doesnt hold promise.
I've actually bought several electrics based 100% on the acoustic tone. Didnt plug em in till I got em home.
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As another reinforcement to the wood makes a difference camp, I have also bought guitars on the acoustic sound alone becuase the pickups weren't delivering the sound I knew the guitar had. The pickups obviously give a lot of the sound of an electric (I know that just from changing pickups in the same guitar, which I'm sure most of us have done). However if the guitar is dead accoustically it will not shine with good pickups (unless you just want to have a thrash metal chugging rhythm sound, in which case you can take a high output pickup into a high gain amp and strap it onto anything with strings).
If the guitar body doesn't affect the vibrations then why does tightening the stop tail down on a Les Paul (or any other guitar with a stop/tom setup), affect the sustain? Same thing with wood types. If they don't affect anything, why is a maple capped mahogany guitar brighter than one that is all maghogany? Finally, and one I have seen many times myself, why if I have 10 guitars of the same type from the same manufacturer and built around the same time, do some sound great and some just blah? The only variable is the woods (in the case of the 10 I was restringing and setting them up when I used to work in music retail, so all the strings were new and the same brand and gauges).
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Whoa there Lesley!!!
I don't think that anyone is saying that wood doesn't make a difference, are they?
(hands up if you are... :oops:)
I'm just making the point that we take a lot of this stuff as trueisms, but that there's actually very little empirical research into the timbre produced by, well, timber. Unless there's a wealth of research that I'm not aware of.
I remember reading something from, I think, Bob Johnson, talking about how crucial the neck joint is in a set neck guitar, and that the type of glue (and the amount of glue, state of the glue etc) can make a huge difference to the perceived sound of the guitar. Now it seems to me that in a factory built guitar it's entirely possibly that the neck of a set neck guitar could be badly joined - this is at least as likely as there being "bad wood" in the damn thing!
Maybe I'm just lucky in that I've never played any really bad sounding guitars, as have been described here.
Mark.
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I'm sure someone could do a load of intricate scientific research to assess the effect of every component and construction detail on the sound of a guitar. But then the only way of building this theoretical "perfect" guitar would be to use artificial, 100% consistent materials, because how would you be able to find pieces of wood with the exact properties required? How would you even assess if a piece of wood had those properties?
I've got a vision of some "Vorsprung Durch Technik" boffins in lab coats producing some contraption and saying "This is the perfect guitar". Then some good ole boy will drag out a knackered Strat and blow them away in two seconds.
Like Rocky chopping logs and beating that Russian bloke with all his computerised training gizmos.
Isn't it best not to get bogged down in theories, and just use your ears? Anyone (even a tone-deaf incompetent like me) can pick up two "identical" guitars and tell straight away that they simply don't sound the same.
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Actually I have a lot of experimental data that I gathered whilst trying to develop the "ultimate bolt on neck joint". I still worked as a mechanical engineer then and had access to all the instrumentation, transponders and transducers that I needed. It was basically stuff we used to measure NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) in prototype vehicles and powertrain rigs.
There is absolutely no doubt that different types of tonewoods have a significant effect on tone as long as the vibration from the string has a good path to the body. Fully floating trems will in effect isolate the string from body so the only feed back that the string will get from the body is via the neck; if this includes a convenience fit bolt on or a badly glued neck the bodies input will be negligible. Body generated tonal colouring is best transmitted through simple well coupled bridges like two post wrap arounds; add rollers,cams, levers and springs and it's the bridge that will have the biggest effect on any tonal changes to the the strings basic vibration pattern. Just compare the difference in tone between a Floyd Rose with a steel sustain block and one with a brass one.
I spent so much time researching this subject that I thought it was worth putting a brief summary of it on the website at http://www.legraguitars.co.uk/construction.htm
This is just a brief summary; there's much more detail on the same subject on the link to Jet guitar at the bottom of the page.
As MDV will no doubt verify, we actually engineered a guitar using a variety of materials in different places to produce a sound that was very clearly defined within tight parameters in advance; an exercise that I am happy to be repeating with Mark right now.
The attached pic shows the use of a mahogany insert to "soften" the bridge mount to give a warmer sound.
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Isn't it best not to get bogged down in theories, and just use your ears? Anyone (even a tone-deaf incompetent like me) can pick up two "identical" guitars and tell straight away that they simply don't sound the same.
You're right, of course Mr Q, but I'd still like to KNOW, if you kow what I mean. It's almost like art vs science in guitar building...
Bob, when you were working on your prototypes, how did you classify the sound that you were hearning? How was it measured?
Mark.
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You're right, of course Mr Q, but I'd still like to KNOW, if you kow what I mean. It's almost like art vs science in guitar building...
I do know what you mean, I'm quite an analytical type in many ways. But there are some things where I'm happy that "it just works" and I don't really care why.
As a non-guitar-related example, I love movies but I hate reading those film study books where they deconstruct a film and go into the symbolism, the technical details and things like "character arcs". I only care if it produces an emotional response, not why it does.
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Bob, when you were working on your prototypes, how did you classify the sound that you were hearning? How was it measured?
Mark.
The main method was with an oscilloscope analyzing signals from transducers on or implanted in the timber, ears are too subjective. We sometimes used strings and sometimes a signal generator driving a transponder. The overall target was to achieve a resonant peak for a whole structure with a bolt on neck that was similar, i.e. as low as, a structure with a glued neck. That is to say negate or partially negate the de-coupling effect of using a bolt on neck. Obviously lots of other data, some of it hard to understand or even repeat was thrown up at the same time; data on sustain and attack for instance.
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Man, the last couple Legras posted here look damn good(even in parts!!!) but the photos on the site do them no favours!! :lol:
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Man, the last couple Legras posted here look damn good(even in parts!!!) but the photos on the site do them no favours!! :lol:
Sorry about that Lew but we now have a new photographer so when I've built and had photo'd enough new stuff for a major update we'll do it.
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Bob, when you were working on your prototypes, how did you classify the sound that you were hearning? How was it measured?
Mark.
The main method was with an oscilloscope analyzing signals from transducers on or implanted in the timber, ears are too subjective. We sometimes used strings and sometimes a signal generator driving a transponder. The overall target was to achieve a resonant peak for a whole structure with a bolt on neck that was similar, i.e. as low as, a structure with a glued neck. That is to say negate or partially negate the de-coupling effect of using a bolt on neck. Obviously lots of other data, some of it hard to understand or even repeat was thrown up at the same time; data on sustain and attack for instance.
... now THAT'S what I'm talking about!
:wink:
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The attached pic shows the use of a mahogany insert to "soften" the bridge mount to give a warmer sound.
I really like the look of that one! :D
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Yep - fine looking wood...
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how do those carbon fibre titanium ceramic space age material guitars from outer space sound compare to a good piece of wood?
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Actually Bob - is that the Boleyn guitar in that picture?
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Actually Bob - is that the Boleyn guitar in that picture?
Yep!
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Cool. Love that guitar. Used to drink in that pub too.
Mark.
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Actually I have a lot of experimental data that I gathered whilst trying to develop the "ultimate bolt on neck joint". I still worked as a mechanical engineer then and had access to all the instrumentation, transponders and transducers that I needed. It was basically stuff we used to measure NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) in prototype vehicles and powertrain rigs.
There is absolutely no doubt that different types of tonewoods have a significant effect on tone as long as the vibration from the string has a good path to the body. Fully floating trems will in effect isolate the string from body so the only feed back that the string will get from the body is via the neck; if this includes a convenience fit bolt on or a badly glued neck the bodies input will be negligible. Body generated tonal colouring is best transmitted through simple well coupled bridges like two post wrap arounds; add rollers,cams, levers and springs and it's the bridge that will have the biggest effect on any tonal changes to the the strings basic vibration pattern. Just compare the difference in tone between a Floyd Rose with a steel sustain block and one with a brass one.
I spent so much time researching this subject that I thought it was worth putting a brief summary of it on the website at http://www.legraguitars.co.uk/construction.htm
This is just a brief summary; there's much more detail on the same subject on the link to Jet guitar at the bottom of the page.
As MDV will no doubt verify, we actually engineered a guitar using a variety of materials in different places to produce a sound that was very clearly defined within tight parameters in advance; an exercise that I am happy to be repeating with Mark right now.
The attached pic shows the use of a mahogany insert to "soften" the bridge mount to give a warmer sound.
A: Measuring the accoustic responses of woods and constructions - awesome.
B: Yep, thats what we did, and it worked.
Its Bobs experience of tonewood behaviour and guitar construction that allowed the MDV602 to sound how I wanted it to, and the MDV602 thats formed the backbone of the Aurora.
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(unless you just want to have a thrash metal chugging rhythm sound, in which case you can take a high output pickup into a high gain amp and strap it onto anything with strings)
This I must protest in the strongest possible terms, good sir!
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I still think that, even in mass produced guitars, there are many, many other variables that might make a difference - different glue in the neck joint, electrics wired differently etc. It would be very hard to pin tonal differences down to wood alone, wouldn't it?
how about 2 guitars made in the same batch in exactly the same way with exactly the same spec and exactly the same type of wood. Of course they will sound similar, but they rarely sound the same.
its a combination of everything but when building for a certain tone I start with the woods and construction method and build up from there.... i cant just decide on the string length and gauge
I recal the exact moment I had this driven home to me, rather forcibly -
Academy of sound (previously A1 music, later sound control) manchester, oxford street - they just got a batch of epi gothics in. I had a muck about with 2 explorers.
1 - nice guitar, spanky but with depth, good strong resonance, lively, harmonics came out easy and it had good thunk. liked it
2 - dead as a $%&#ing doornail. Just a wooly boomy sustainless mess.
Checked them over thoroughly - new strings, same action, same batch out of the factory, damn near identical serial numbers even - a few digits out from one another. As close as two gutiars can get to one another and one was pretty good and one was a cricket bat with strings on. The only thing that I couldnt see that could have plausibly cause the difference was the neck join - no way to tell how much glue was in each, and if one had A LOT more and no wood:wood contact in the join that may have caused the difference, I suppose. From the outside they were the same, however.
Conclusion - the same wood species can even sound very different from one guitar to the next. This has born out repeatedly in my experience, comparing on-paper extremely similar guitars, including wood species; they often have rather different sounds.
My whole point is brought out here in that it is the construction of the guitar more than the particular tone wood used that makes a good or bad instrument while the wood will make a difference it will be small unless it has a flaw. The neck and neck joint for example will behave very differently dependent on how well/ what construction but the solid lump of wood at the other end will have a much smaller effect.
It has been shown that a good luthier can get his characteristic sound out of almost any wood even for an acoustic instrument
The reason different mass produced instruments sound different is down to QC variations.
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i do think you are completely underestimating the role of the wood. but you do sound convinced of your reasoning so i would like to know why is it you are so convinced wood plays such a small role? there is a lot of experience in this thread that disagrees with you.
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Man, the last couple Legras posted here look damn good(even in parts!!!) but the photos on the site do them no favours!! :lol:
Sorry about that Lew but we now have a new photographer so when I've built and had photo'd enough new stuff for a major update we'll do it.
Look forward to it! 8)
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Sorry I think my point got lost somewhere I did not say that the wood would have no effect I said that the effect would be more to do with how it held on to the neck etc. Also I was trying to point out that many characteristics of the wood can be compensated for by changing features and shape.
If the wood type really did have a large influence from its resonance then - thickness, shape, density, velocity of sound variations would make a difference from one piece of wood to another of the same type.
There is a great article on the web by an american luthier on tone woods in acoustic guitars where he points out how the sound is the instrument maker not the the wood, which I read after some random googles but I didn't book mark it and now I can't find it. Search was something around tone woods.
and I do enjoy a bit of playing devils advocate to stir the debate :D
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Nothing like talking about wood to get the juices going on a guitar forum!
:wink:
I too like to play devils advocate - I think that it's healthy to challenge long held beliefs, our own and others. It's good to question what you believe sometimes, even if it's patently fact (or, indeed, patently bollocks...)
There was a good point earlier about composite guitars... the ones that I've heard generally sounded great, very "natural" sounding, despite being (I think) graphite necks with EMG pickups.
Mark.
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If the wood type really did have a large influence from its resonance then - thickness, shape, density, velocity of sound variations would make a difference from one piece of wood to another of the same type
i believe it does. i have used this example before but i brought two mahogany through neck blanks at the same time a few years ago. both came from the same supplier, were exactly the same dimensions and looked very similar. One was twice the weight of the other (literally, i checked to make sure i wasnt imagining it) and had a very different tap tone. Whilst both were good for guitars i know they would not sound the same
There is a great article on the web by an american luthier on tone woods in acoustic guitars where he points out how the sound is the instrument maker not the the wood,
thats completely true... part of making acoustic guitars successsfully and consistently is finding your voice... something us electric builders dont have to worry about as much
but as far as i am aware finding your voice as a luthier means understanding the impact the tonewood has and being able to shape it into something that sounds the way you want... rather than saying your construction style is your voice. thats means understanding and being able to work with the differences in each individual piece of wood, rather than saying the wood isnt important. Bob benedetto has writen some on this. he frequently uses woods that some people would say were unsuitable but they still sound like great benedetto archtops
acoustic builders like bob do this by varying the carving and thicknesses on each guitar... tap tuning it throughout the constuction process to maintain consistency in sound... rather than consistency in dimensions... thats how they can control for the differences in woods, even so the differences still exist
electric guitar factories do not do this. they build things to standard dimensions... which means differences in woods (of the same type) do become an important consideration from one guitar to the next
for what its worth i try not to use the tonewood term when talking about electric woods... its just marketing mojo
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I too like to play devils advocate - I think that it's healthy to challenge long held beliefs, our own and others. It's good to question what you believe sometimes, even if it's patently fact (or, indeed, patently bollocks...)
yeah, definitely. :)
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Nothing like talking about wood to get the juices going on a guitar forum!
:wink:
I too like to play devils advocate - I think that it's healthy to challenge long held beliefs, our own and others. It's good to question what you believe sometimes, even if it's patently fact (or, indeed, patently bollocks...)
There was a good point earlier about composite guitars... the ones that I've heard generally sounded great, very "natural" sounding, despite being (I think) graphite necks with EMG pickups.
Mark.
+1.
Straight outta mill's freedom of thought and discussion.
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Nothing like talking about wood to get the juices going on a guitar forum!
:wink:
I too like to play devils advocate - I think that it's healthy to challenge long held beliefs, our own and others. It's good to question what you believe sometimes, even if it's patently fact (or, indeed, patently bollocks...)
There was a good point earlier about composite guitars... the ones that I've heard generally sounded great, very "natural" sounding, despite being (I think) graphite necks with EMG pickups.
Mark.
+1.
Straight outta mill's freedom of thought and discussion.
Really? Did Mills play a Steinberger..?
:wink: