Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Twinfan on August 28, 2009, 12:23:06 PM
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I'm interested in the general opinion on this one.
I've just been reading this month's Guitarist magazine where they review the new Rivera Venus 5 1x12 combo. Spec is as follows:
* 50w 1x12 combo
* Two channels
* Extra boost on the Lead channel
* Reverb
* Effects loop
* Half power switch
* Top quality PCB constuction
* Top spec components throughout
* USA built
* £2124
Nick Guppy describes the amp as "painfully expensive" in the write up. Now to me, £2000 for a high spec amp from a volume manufacturer that has to comply with EC regulations and run a factory blah-de-blah doesn't sound to me to be unreasonable. It's built in the US too where labour rates are higher than in the Far East, and you've got the complete gig package as it's a combo - no need to buy cabs for a head etc and it's loud enough at 50w.
Is it just me that thinks that's a pretty good price for a serious pro-level piece of amplification for a session guy or regular gigger who cares about his tone?
Compare it to the Larry Amps head that Hunter mentioned in another thread that was £5000 for the head only - you'd still needed to buy a cab. That, to me, is "painfully expensive". The Rivera seems pretty good value to me.
Or have I lost all sense of worth and £2000 is a horrendous amount???
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You're making a value judgement that "expensive" = "overpiced", whereas it just means "not cheap". Indeed, the 3 sentences afterwards all strongly recommend it.
£2000 IS expensive for a 50w 2X12, but that doesn't mean it's not worth it, it just means it's beyond the spending power of most players.
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Good points. While I don't deny it's not cheap, it's the "painfully" bit I'm mostly referring to.
Is £2000 really out of the reach of most players? Or do people just not want to spend that much on an amp?
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It's a fair price for a high quality product. To me that precludes the use of the word "painful".
We're so used to paying peanuts now, for cheaply made cr@p, that when you're faced with paying the right price for something, it seems expensive by comparison.
If we would all learn to buy less, and pay more for it, and then look after, service and repair our high quality, expensive equipment, and stop shipping container loads of junk half way round the world, we'd all be a lot happier.
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Is £2000 really out of the reach of most players? Or do people just not want to spend that much on an amp?
I would think the latter, it was certainly true for me before I really got into guitars, amps etc. My progression from cheaply made guitars to expensive models was very quick. The amp part took a lot longer to reach that level!
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TBF though, this is a fairly "boutique" bit of equipment, so by definition out of the range of most players.
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Is it out of the range of most players though? That's what I'm asking. I've been to pub gigs where I've seen Mesa Rectifier half stacks, two Gibson LP Customs etc. Plus there are plenty of folks with multiple guitar/amp collections.
I think there are a couple of reasons:
1) Guitars are 'sexier'. We attach ourselves to them more and are happy to pay big money for the right one
2) You can buy a £200 transistor half stack and people think a combo at 10 times the price is mental. The £200er sounds a bit pants, but people think the tone is only in the guitar and revert to point 1)........
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that is true... £2000 isnt the end of the world... but some of the best live tones ive heard have been from very low end amps.
I heard a guitarist use a Laney hybrid stack, think its the TI300 or something, which had brilliant clean and distorted tones... Im not saying the amp doesnt matter, but i dont think many people get the most out of what they use. People are too egar to replace rather than push to get the most out of what they have... which i think gets the more unique individual tones, its easy to buy a tone.
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You're viewing the world from your own perspective, and you are the target market for this product. Most players do not play regular payed gigs. Of those who do, most will not have a Triple rectifier (I mean for starters, WAY overkill for a pub gig) and most will not have a pair of LP customs. Most will have a well worn LP standard or studio, a USA standard strat and a mexican tele and a marshall halfstack (if they're in a rock covers band). People in most original material bands will probably have a couple of upper end MIK/ lower end MIJ guitars, or 1 Gibson/PRS and an MIK backup.
Of those who don't: Do I have the money in the bank to walk out the door and come home with an LP standard? Yes. Are there other things I should probably spend the money on? Most definitely. Therefore, would it be a painful amount to spend on a non essential item? Yes.
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Great points from you Ben, and from Spitfire too. I guess it's all down to our own particular tone hunts, and how:
1) bothered we are about 'our perfect tone' in the first place
2) much available cash we have
3) we prioritise guitar gear over anything else - family, drugs, beer, cars, loose women, charity, poker, etc etc
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On the rare occasions I pickup Guitarist magazine their seem to be plenty of guitars over £2000 reviewed, none of which ever seem to be described as "painfully expensive".
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Consider where youre asking this question as well
We're pretty much the GAS elite round here, and BK board members here are probably divided into two goups - those that already have paid ~£2000 for an amp and those that will when they can. Outside these forum walls there are still plenty of GASers that would pay, but the proportion of guitarists that would look at that and reject it out of hand or see as for people with more money than sense is probable far higher.
To me the question of what it is youre paying for has NOTHING to do with the spec - it has everything to do with the sound/s you can get with it. Whats inside the box is nothing but a means to that end. If it ticked my boxes on that front I would buy it (as I have with a head and cab of much the same price already, and likely will again at some point).
Whether its out of reach for most guitarists is up to the guitarist and what disposable income they have. We arent in any position to assess that from here and its up to each individual that fanices such a bit of kit to figure that out for themselves.
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Guitarist do review a lot of amps in the high price bracket and many of us read it to lust after the nice gear.
I remember the reviews of the Randall Modular amps and they winced at the price (and the weight of the combo)
They were in the £2000 league
Like with posh cars it is true that for slight increments in quality past a certain point you pay heavily
But it is the same with guitars too - you can get a great playing LP copy from the far east for under £700 but to go to one made in the USA or UK/ Europe you will pay more heavily.
Go to a custom shop and the prices will seem even steeper, but usually the feel and the attention to detail or the fact that you are able to specify many aspects of it are what justify the expense to the purchaser.
I like Rivera stuff - it is well made stuff with a good tone
But we are lucky to have some great boutique makers here in the Uk
I have already used MJW and HTH for stuff and been really happy
(just got the HTH today - full report and clips to follow when I get a minute)
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Like with posh cars it is true that for slight increments in quality past a certain point you pay heavily
But it is the same with guitars too -
What you are referring to is called the point of diminishing returns -- maximum increase in money for minimal increases in performance. It occurs in any market where things are manufactured.
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Good points. While I don't deny it's not cheap, it's the "painfully" bit I'm mostly referring to.
Is £2000 really out of the reach of most players? Or do people just not want to spend that much on an amp?
Yes, £2000 really is out of the reach for most players when it comes to an amp. If you think otherwise you've been hanging around elite forums and high end guitarshops too long :lol: :P
But yea, for me, the cost is only relative to the item and not unto it's self.
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So have you then, as looking at your avatar you've got nearly £2 grands worth of gear there :P
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Like with posh cars it is true that for slight increments in quality past a certain point you pay heavily
But it is the same with guitars too -
What you are referring to is called the point of diminishing returns -- maximum increase in money for minimal increases in performance. It occurs in any market where things are manufactured.
Yes - that was the phrase I needed
For some players it will be worthwhile spending the extra - or Trainwreck , Dumble etc wouldn't exist
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Most guitarists I know wouldn't even consider (or be allowed to by the other-half) an amp for £2,000 They often have MIK or MIM guitars and amps that cost less than £200 and 'dream' of owning an American made guitar or valve amp. When I tell them the gear I have, most think I'm pulling-their-leg.
IMO Guitarist have used the term 'painfully' in a sensational way to up the attention of the reader... looks like it worked :wink:
On another issue, I can't believe the number of BMW X5 I see when walking the dog, don't they cost £40,000 That's 'painfully' expensive for something that you'll trade-in with 60% depreciation in 3 years.
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So have you then, as looking at your avatar you've got nearly £2 grands worth of gear there :P
Oh for sure, the guitar alone is 2.5k :lol: :lol:
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You're viewing the world from your own perspective
pretty much exactly as I was going to say, to a person (not me ;) ) who thinks solidstate harsh buzzy digital stuff sounds alright, it's a lot of money
I don't know much about the tone of this rivera but going purely off the specs, an engl screamer is much cheaper and probably has at least 90% as much tone
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The actual make and model of the amp doesn't actually matter for this discussion. It's partly the old "I'll pay loads for a guitar but pence for an amp" conversation.
I find it really interesting to see people's opinions.
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Guitars are more labour intensive, and have multiple price variables, whereas amps are fairly straightforward to manufacture and have a finite production cost. Did the Rivera cost £700 more to make, or take 4 times as long to make as a Marshall DSL 50 combo? I doubt it.
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The actual make and model of the amp doesn't actually matter for this discussion. It's partly the old "I'll pay loads for a guitar but pence for an amp" conversation.
I find it really interesting to see people's opinions.
Dave - you're almost touching on the expensive guitar , expensive amp, expensive pedals and cheap leads
I hate paying a fortune for 2" of patch cable but your sound will only be as good as the weakest link allows it to be
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Guitars are more labour intensive, and have multiple price variables, whereas amps are fairly straightforward to manufacture and have a finite production cost. Did the Rivera cost £700 more to make, or take 4 times as long to make as a Marshall DSL 50 combo? I doubt it.
All amps should cost the same then?
Amps have plenty of "price variables", some are plenty labour intensive (I have no doubt that the Rivera has many more hours in it than the DSL50), and do NOT have a finite production cost. The biggest factor affecting this is almost certainly quantity. Think about how many DSL50s are made versus the Rivera.
Compare an Orange Tiny terror, a Suhr Badger, a Matchless Lightning and an Alessandro Black'n'Tan.
I suppose it's ok for guitars to range from a Pacifica to Custom shop, but an amp's just a amp?
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2 grand for an amp is painfully expensive to me. As Spitfire says, I think its because I tend to get more out of cheaper gear (well, my amp was about £500 I think if you call that cheap). And I've sort of stopped caring about good tone as much now. So long as it doesnt sound TOO shitee/sterile/fake and has a british voicing then it should be ok for me :)
The only reason I would consider a more expensive amp is reliability and less noise (GH50L seems to be quite noisy).
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Guitars are more labour intensive, and have multiple price variables, whereas amps are fairly straightforward to manufacture and have a finite production cost. Did the Rivera cost £700 more to make, or take 4 times as long to make as a Marshall DSL 50 combo? I doubt it.
All amps should cost the same then?
Amps have plenty of "price variables", some are plenty labour intensive (I have no doubt that the Rivera has many more hours in it than the DSL50), and do NOT have a finite production cost. The biggest factor affecting this is almost certainly quantity. Think about how many DSL50s are made versus the Rivera.
Compare an Orange Tiny terror, a Suhr Badger, a Matchless Lightning and an Alessandro Black'n'Tan.
I suppose it's ok for guitars to range from a Pacifica to Custom shop, but an amp's just a amp?
Not at all,I have no issue with amps being whatever they cost, my point was that people are less squeamish about laying down big bucks for a guitar because (in most cases) you can see the added value, whereas one birch box with some valves and circuit boards in looks very much like any other. I have no intention of belittling what you do Martin, amp manufacture is a dark art where few of us would dare to venture, but as has already been mentioned, boutique amps are subject to diminishing returns, especially as the thing people are after with boutique amps is an intangible.
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Maybe do amps with figured Claro casings and brazillian rosewood front panels and people will gladly pay 2K plus :D
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I don't think of Rivera as a boutique amp. They are high quality, but still PCB amps.
They are, if you like, the BMW to the DSL50's Mondeo. No-one would object to paying more for an Audi or BMW than the equivalent Ford or Vauxhall.
The Rivera is aimed at pros and semi-pros. I have one customer , a professional musician, who's had a Rivera combo for over 10 years that he uses 3 or 4 times a week. I gave it it's first ever service a few months back, and it needed no attention, other than a clean.
"Painfully expensive" does suggest overpriced to me, which I wouldn't say the Rivera is.
To my cost, I often come across the squeamishness about spending big money on an amp! :(
Maybe you're right about the bling. Walnut cab anyone? :)
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It's partly the old "I'll pay loads for a guitar but pence for an amp" conversation.
there is certainly something to be said about a guitar being a lot more tangible than an amp
guitars have tons of shapes, sizes, and feel different, most amps are cosmetically a box with knobs on the front, you still have different looking amps but not in the same way as a guitar
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£2000 is way over the top. This amp was for sale for $1500, including the cab.
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a234/stuckygirl/DSC08107.jpg)
It's a 1961 Blonde Bassman.
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That's a nice looking Bassman.
My take on stuff, guitar related equipment in particular, is that it's worth what you/someone else pay for it. By that I mean if you see something you like an pay the price for it, it is worth it and not "painfully expensive". Bit of a simple way of looking at it and I know that logic wouldn't pass the Devries test* :o
*That is of course if you like the Devries!
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I don't think of Rivera as a boutique amp. They are high quality, but still PCB amps.
What's PCB got to do with being boutique?
Of-course, I do hate the term boutique too - it should be kept for describing small kitch indie clothes shops located in the styx + I've owned both and I've found absolutely no evidence that a PTP/Turret amp sounds better than PCB just because it's hand wired, I can understand why a small builder would use it as I imagine it's alot more cost effective and easier to do custom work but other than that I think it's a cr@ppy myth to get people to justify costs.
:)
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I don't think of Rivera as a boutique amp. They are high quality, but still PCB amps.
What's PCB got to do with being boutique?
Nothing directly. But if it's made on a PCB, that means you're making a lot of them. If you're making a lot of them, that goes away from the orignal use of the word boutique in the context of amp builders.
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I don't think of Rivera as a boutique amp. They are high quality, but still PCB amps.
What's PCB got to do with being boutique?
Nothing directly. But if it's made on a PCB, that means you're making a lot of them. If you're making a lot of them, that goes away from the orignal use of the word boutique in the context of amp builders.
I'm with ya there. But I think the original meaning has been skewed. Bogner, CAE/Suhr etc... are often referred to (wrongly imo) as boutique for example.
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I'd say that £2k for a mass-produced amp is a little over the top bearing in mind the economy of scale.
Bearing in mind myself (and others on this forum) could build the last amp you'll ever need (tailored to your needs) for that kind of money with no cost spared on quality components, then the value aspect diminishes, imo.
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I'm with ya there. But I think the original meaning has been skewed.
Yep:
"A boutique, from the French word for "shop," is a small shopping outlet, especially one that specializes in elite and fashionable items such as clothing and jewellery"
and then:
"Recently, the term "boutique" has started being applied to normally-mass-market items that are either niche or produced in intentionally small numbers at very high prices. This may be referred to as boutique manufacturing."
Which I agree with, apart from the niche or produced in intentionally small numbers bit.
Apologies for the shameless C&P from wiki!
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I'd prefer the blonde bassman - but for a pro or serious pub gigger amp workhorse £2k isn't that much - I'm of the amp is more important than guitar persuasion, but still, to spend that much money, you have to be making some money out of your playing to justify it.
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My view is that whatever your guitar costs should mirror what your amp costs (in a roundabout way)
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My view is that whatever your guitar costs should mirror what your amp costs (in a roundabout way)
Dave - are you read to match your ME with an amp in the same price bracket :wink:
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It's a fair price for a high quality product. To me that precludes the use of the word "painful".
We're so used to paying peanuts now, for cheaply made cr@p, that when you're faced with paying the right price for something, it seems expensive by comparison.
If we would all learn to buy less, and pay more for it, and then look after, service and repair our high quality, expensive equipment, and stop shipping container loads of junk half way round the world, we'd all be a lot happier.
agreed.
that being said, at £2000 it better be darn good. and I also agree with what HTH is saying about the smaller amp companies. I don't really give a shitee that it costs more to run a big factory, I want the best amp at the cheapest price, running a big factory doesn't make it sound any better. The whole point of capitalism (not that I necessarily agree with every tenet of it, but I didn't pick the system, and these big companies don't mind taking the advantages of capitalism when it suits them) is that the most efficient company wins. And the whole point of mass production was that it was supposed to increase efficiency and lower costs, I thought.
While I would agree that if you spend under a certain amount, it's going to be cheap cr@p, you don't have to spend £2k to get something "good", especially if you know what you're doing and are willing to hold out for a good deal.
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My view is that whatever your guitar costs should mirror what your amp costs (in a roundabout way)
Dave - are you read to match your ME with an amp in the same price bracket :wink:
I don't know any £4000 amps, other than that Larry thing Hunter brought up in another thread :lol:
I'm quite happy with my custom designed Martamp that I got for a very reasonable price thank you very much...............
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yeah, i don't agree with "cost" so much as "quality" in matching amps and guitars. if you have a high-end guitar, you should have a high-end amp to do it justice, regardless of the cost. Certainly if you play mainly blues and classic rock, you can get high quality low gain amps for not all that much, but it's not so much the case if you need high gain and multiple channels etc.
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I can only compare with the Rivera R55 I used to own, which had pretty much identical spec (although I'm sure there are subtle but profound differences passing me by here..... :? ). That was about £700, many years ago but amps haven't gone up that much.
I don't know about painfully expensive, but it's.... expensive.
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I don't know any £4000 amps, other than that Larry thing Hunter brought up in another thread :lol:
Van Weeldon Twinkle Land is just under £5k
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Id go for a blackenship or diamond del fuego
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Well I am all for amps anyways, so I don't think 2K is too much for a great amp. The problem with the Venus will more be resale value as there is not so much demand for them.
Then I'd rather go for this Fandango for 1199 at Coda Music ;o)
http://www.coda-music.com/product_info.php?cPath=170&products_id=4708
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I'd prefer the blonde bassman - but for a pro or serious pub gigger amp workhorse £2k isn't that much
But you tend to find the serious semi-pros don't spend much money on gear. Sure some do, but the VAST majority have one strat/LP/Tele and one decent Fender, Vox or Marshall. They've probably got a fairly expensive PA, though.
Most pros I deal with are similar, but maybe it's one PRS and a Boogie, or in fact, cheap as hell gear cause the barely earn any money.
Most high end gear goes to serious hobbyists.
I'm generalising, but that's roughly how it usually goes.
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I kind of have to agree with the last comment- I have just shelled out £2.5k on a Matchless- I'm only an occasional weekend 'warrior' (which gives me much pleasure I might add). Having owned just about every make and model of amp over the years, a high end guitar amp really is a luxury item admittedly - But I justify it personally as it has the greatest tone of any amp I've ever owned - and I've had several vintage plexi's , Vox's etc...etc... for me personally I'd rather spend my hard earned money on great guitars & amps than an expensive car that depreciates at frankly obscene rates... Hence, I choose to drive a cr@ppy el cheapo Nissan... as ever, you pays yer money & you makes yer choice...
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It´s Painfully expensive for a Rivera, try and get some email support and you´ll see what I mean!
You are paying so much for the name, the guy invented an okay Fender amp in the 80´s and he seems to have become the last name in amp design....
I´m not saying this is not a good amp, I´m sure it´s the well designed, well engineered mass produced amp I think it is.....
I´m sure you could get better value for your 2k.....
I don´t think 2k is painfully expensive for an amp though, just this one....
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Most of the crowds in the pubs that we play could not tell the difference between a £2K Rivera and a £200 tranny amp....
I keep telling the guitarists that the only people that notice the tone is them - the audience are basically tone deaf....
IMHO - if you spend that sort of money on your amp it is because you are paying for the sound/tone/fit for the music that you play and also for the 'durability; - i.e. you expect it to last a long time! Hence, for a pro musician they get the value from it - if you gig once in a blue moon then you are buying it for yourself, not for the band/crowd.
Mike
PS - stands well back and puts on flame-proof keks....
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^ i agree. if you ask me, anything you buy, you're more or less buying for yourself. as long as you realise that, it's fine.
Van Weeldon Twinkle Land is just under £5k
you'd think for £5k they could come up with a less lame name.
Hence, I choose to drive a cr@ppy el cheapo Nissan... as ever, you pays yer money & you makes yer choice...
:lol: that could almost be identity theft... :D
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Most of the crowds in the pubs that we play could not tell the difference between a £2K Rivera and a £200 tranny amp....
I keep telling the guitarists that the only people that notice the tone is them - the audience are basically tone deaf....
PS - stands well back and puts on flame-proof keks....
No, I agree. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the sound quality at most gigs is bloody awful and FAR TOO LOUD. It reaches a point where your ears are ringing so much from the volume and harsh distortion that the band could be playing through Squier starter kits (assuming they made 50W starter kits...) and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.
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i agree about its being far too loud. I still have slight ringing in my right ear from the extreme gig about 6 months ago- in my defence, the support band was actually really quiet, so idiot me thought, "if it's going to be as quiet as this i might as well try to get close to the front". Then extreme comes on at about twice the volume. o_O I got to the back as quickly as i could through the crowd, but the damage had already been done :(
I also completely don't buy the argument about getting into it more if it's ridiculously loud. I don't see how you can get into it more if it's so loud you can't $%&#ing hear it.
EDIT: what doesn't seem to help is that there are always plenty of guys at the front apparently oblivious to the extreme volume. :lol: their ears must be completely shot, which'd be funny and poetic justice if they didn't seem to be the guys making up the rules for how loud things should be... :(
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The pros I've come across usually get their gear for free if they bother to mention it somewhere and have usually have enough money so that a room full of vintage guitars and amps is the norm. So I guess £2000 is sweet $%&# all to them comparatively if they actually had to buy it.
Then again so is a chalet in Switzerland, a penthouse overlooking Central Park, another chalet in Aspen, a house on Regents Park road and another in the LA hills.
What I'd be asking myself is that amp worth £2000 smackers to me. If it gives me the sound in my head then it's worth it, if it does not then it's not worth the money. Simples, click, click...
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Most of the crowds in the pubs that we play could not tell the difference between a £2K Rivera and a £200 tranny amp....
I keep telling the guitarists that the only people that notice the tone is them - the audience are basically tone deaf....
IMHO - if you spend that sort of money on your amp it is because you are paying for the sound/tone/fit for the music that you play and also for the 'durability; - i.e. you expect it to last a long time! Hence, for a pro musician they get the value from it - if you gig once in a blue moon then you are buying it for yourself, not for the band/crowd.
Mike
PS - stands well back and puts on flame-proof keks....
For me personally, I want the best tone I can get for me not the punters in the pub. I can't get into it if my tone isn't happening.
You can argue that most people can't tell the difference between a £2k Rivera and a £200 tranny amp, but using that rationale we should all be playing Korean Squires and BKP shouldn't exist.
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^ agreed. I only play at home, and i have thousands of pounds worth of kit. Plenty of people would think I'm mad, but then I think they're mad with the stuff they buy... :lol:
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For me personally, I want the best tone I can get for me not the punters in the pub. I can't get into it if my tone isn't happening.
+1000
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Classic fallacious conclusion: "The sound at most pub gigs is poor, so there's no point buying decent gear."
:lol:
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Classic fallacious conclusion: "The sound at most pub gigs is poor, so there's no point buying decent gear."
:lol:
:lol: So according to that logic, and my partner, I should be okay with Line 6 stuff from now on :o
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The sounds that we play around with at home in most cases do not work on the live gig! after many years of playing big live venues I found that all these so called "do everything" amps just don't work on the gig, and working in a music shop by day I could test all this first hand (and did for a short while) I always came back to a valve Marshall through a quad box with Celestions, a few good pedals or quality multi effects unit.
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i like expensive amps.
i guess some people collect really expensive guitars. but i like poking around in amplifiers and I when we play i get asked about my amps and complimented on my tone, usually by other guitarists.
Played a Hiwatt Hi Gain 100 at the weekend and i wasn't that into it. Also played an Orange Rocker 50 a few weeks back, and i was slightly suprised by how that sounded, but i wasn't into that either.
the upper end of mass produced amps still have quality issues tone wise, well, at least the ones ive played. (mesa dual rectumfryers for example)
i guess having a 'one amp does it all' kinda rig is a bit style dependant. I couldnt get away with playing a lot of shows on a 1x12 with a 30watt head. I've used a 5150 via a 2x12 before and even that was a little awkward.
like you say, if it gets you closer to that tone in your head then thats cool and if it helps you get into thats cool.
lowest cost rig i used once was a stock DS-1 and EQ-7 into a HH 3 channel vocal pa (solid state) into a 4x12 cab.
CRUSHING! actually it didnt sound that bad!
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The pros I've come across usually get their gear for free if they bother to mention it somewhere and have usually have enough money so that a room full of vintage guitars and amps is the norm. So I guess £2000 is sweet $%&# all to them comparatively if they actually had to buy it.
Then again so is a chalet in Switzerland, a penthouse overlooking Central Park, another chalet in Aspen, a house on Regents Park road and another in the LA hills.
Of course, it's gonna be less than 1% of proffessional musicians lucky enough to be in that position.
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Classic fallacious conclusion: "The sound at most pub gigs is poor, so there's no point buying decent gear."
:lol:
hahahaha, circular logic at its best.
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Classic fallacious conclusion: "The sound at most pub gigs is poor, so there's no point buying decent gear."
:lol:
hahahaha, circular logic at its best.
taken a step further... don't switch the jukebox off and tell the band to stay at home.
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Classic fallacious conclusion: "The sound at most pub gigs is poor, so there's no point buying decent gear."
:lol:
hahahaha, circular logic at its best.
taken a step further... don't switch the jukebox off and tell the band to stay at home.
I don't think anyone actually said "the sound at most pub gigs is poor so there's no point buying decent gear". Just that the sound at most pub gigs (and gigs in general) is poor. What you spend on gear is up to you.
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And that most of the punters do not notice the fact!
I would NEVER advocate not spending money on good equipment if you can afford it - don't let a bunch of tone deaf punters get in the way of a good GAS session!
Mike
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Some very interesting points most of which I would largely agree with.
Notwithstanding the fact that a) I almost never buy any guitars/amps new, and b) that I would rather play the Blond Tolex Bassman shown in an earlier post than any Rivera amp, I don't see £2k as completely off the wall.
Regardless, I really can't get that worried about the price of gear, especially of that I'm never going to buy...
I would agree, many of pro guys I know don't have that expensive kit, mainly because they don't earn much. Furthermore, many bands hire backline, so they tend to use easily sourced amps, which is mainly Fender or Marshall. They also don't tend to use channel switching amps........
The people I know with the most valuable gear are either collectors, semi-pros using their hobby to subsidize their gear purchases, or guitar dealers.
Part of the reason pro gear is more expensive (and don't just mean guitars and amps, look at say tools) is that it is built to last and with stand the inevitable (ab)use.
The first decent guitar I bought was a USA Strat back in 1989. It was my main guitar for several years and at one stage I was doing 100-150 gigs a year. It never let me down. At the same time I also had a Squier Silver series, and very quickly parts started to fail on it, eg switch, pots, even though I was only using as a spare, or for the occassional gig.
Bottom line is, to find the true cost of an item you need to consider the lifetime cost of a purchase, which includes maintenance, depreciation etc (and why I by second-hand gear!).
Guitars are more labour intensive, and have multiple price variables, whereas amps are fairly straightforward to manufacture and have a finite production cost. Did the Rivera cost £700 more to make, or take 4 times as long to make as a Marshall DSL 50 combo? I doubt it.
I can't say I agree with this. Amps can be very labour intensive. Rivera amps, from what I understand, are hand soldered. This is far more labour intensive than using a machine to stuff the board and wave soldering.
There are just as many multiple price variables on an amp than a guitar eg What do you use for the chassis? Mild steel, aluminium, stainless steel. What thickness? What coating/ passivationg do you use? What specification do you have your transfomers made to etc. What specifications do you have your PCBs made to? Do you mount pots on the PCB, etc.
Further more a manufacturer such as Rivera WILL be complying with all the necessary safety regs, testing, RoHS etc. This costs alot of money. I certainly know of at least 2 US manufacturers whose amps are being sold in the UK that don't comply to RoHS and contravene EU safety regulations (not to say that they are unsafe).
There are reasons for using a PCB other than reducing cost (although obviously if you are making an amp as cheaply as possible in volume you would of course use a PCB). PCBs provide the best reproducibility of manufacture.
The top end PCBs, as used by THD and Rivera, are at least as expensive to produce as say eyelet board, and development costs become more significant at lower production runs. Furthermore, using hand soldering on a PCB can be as labour intensive as say eyelet ot turret board, especially if the pots and valve sockets are mounted off the board, which they should be for maximum reliability.
Regardaing the comparison of the price difference between the Rivera and the Marshall DSL50, a fairer comparison would be to compare the US price of the Marshall with the UK price of the Rivera.
As for differences in build quality, I'm afraid the Marshall is a very poor second.....
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+1 to what JPF said
I certainly know of at least 2 US manufacturers whose amps are being sold in the UK that don't comply to RoHS and contravene EU safety regulations (not to say that they are unsafe).
Is that simply by not using lead free solder - which breaks down and fails after a while anyway?
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+1 to what JPF said
I certainly know of at least 2 US manufacturers whose amps are being sold in the UK that don't comply to RoHS and contravene EU safety regulations (not to say that they are unsafe).
Is that simply by not using lead free solder - which breaks down and fails after a while anyway?
Yes by not using lead-free solder they are contavening RoHS. They also may be using non-RoHS parts (although it's impossible to tell be looking at them).
Features that contravene EU regs include: not using a detachable IEC mains lead, the mains earth bond should be a threaded bolt welded to the chassis, all transformer secondaries should be fused (to be fair most manufacturers don't do this as it completely daft, eg fusing the bias supply).
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yes , obviously.I'm sure it's good although the youtube vid i just watched didn't sound so convincing.Now my engl screamer 50 is a 1x12 combo and with it's superb footswitch gives clean crunch,chrunchier and overdrive, 2 channels
'4sounds each with a footswitchable volume boost and reverb.Cost 900sterling altogether.I bet its as good or better
and its made in the fatherland! But for 2grand I could buy 2 of them and an AB pedal giving 8 footswitchable sounds
each with available boost, this i guarantee would piss all over it!
'
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Regardaing the comparison of the price difference between the Rivera and the Marshall DSL50, a fairer comparison would be to compare the US price of the Marshall with the UK price of the Rivera.
agreed. Or the UK price of the marshall compared to the US price of the rivera.
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Regardaing the comparison of the price difference between the Rivera and the Marshall DSL50, a fairer comparison would be to compare the US price of the Marshall with the UK price of the Rivera.
agreed. Or the UK price of the marshall compared to the US price of the rivera.
What upsets me is when UK made goods are cheaper abroad - that I can't understand
It happened with Rover Cars in the 80s and 90s and I'm sure it still happens today
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Regardaing the comparison of the price difference between the Rivera and the Marshall DSL50, a fairer comparison would be to compare the US price of the Marshall with the UK price of the Rivera.
agreed. Or the UK price of the marshall compared to the US price of the rivera.
What upsets me is when UK made goods are cheaper abroad - that I can't understand
It happened with Rover Cars in the 80s and 90s and I'm sure it still happens today
Not with Rover cars it doesn't......
I suspect some form of Govt. subsidy was involved here. Looking at the economics of the car industry I really can't see how any money is made making cars.
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If you have the disposable income and a decent rehersal space / garage / music room to turn it up and do it justice, then buying a £2K amp isn't 'painfully expensive' surely.
I've personally never spend more than £500 on an amp as to me it's the 'makey louder' part of my rig, but I do have about £2K worth of FX pedals though. :P
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I've been watching this thread with great interest, but with not a lot to say, until jpfamps great post above :D
A big +1 from me on this in particular:
... I don't see £2k as completely off the wall.
Regardless, I really can't get that worried about the price of gear, especially of that I'm never going to buy...
£2k for that particular amp is, for me personally, "painfully expensive" :lol:
But would £2k be over the top for the right amp for me? If I needed an amp, and the one I really wanted after careful research was £2k, probably not... but I suspect the amp I'd want is more likely to be in the 500-1000 bracket.
Actually, if I was to gig again, the amp I'd want behind me would be my 25 year-old Laney Protube 50w MV 1x12 combo overhauled and serviced - and if I was about to get that done, I would be more than happy paying the equivalent of a new amp or more to get to get it done... (I've even been wondering recently, even though I have no need of it operational at present, how the hell to get it up to Denmark St for you to look at it jpfamps - no transport, and it weighs a flippin ton :lol:)
By the way, "many of pro guys I know ... also don't tend to use channel switching amps..."
I don't know any anymore, but from previous experience I have to agree - although I use modellors etc for home practice/recording now, a gigging amp for me would have to be single channel.
I tried switching amps, and it just wasn't worth the hassle for me. I want a decent tone that I can control with the guitar and possibly a boost pedal of some sort (I even use patches on my modellors like this). Channel switching amps seemed like a brilliant idea until I tried them. In practice, they seemed to give me 2, or 3, "ok-but-no-cigar" sounds that always needed loads of @rsing about in sound-checks. The single channel route gave me a sh1thot basic tone I could use for 2-3 hours without getting bored/frustrated with it, leaving me free to perform.
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I tried switching amps, and it just wasn't worth the hassle for me. I want a decent tone that I can control with the guitar and possibly a boost pedal of some sort (I even use patches on my modellors like this). Channel switching amps seemed like a brilliant idea until I tried them. In practice, they seemed to give me 2, or 3, "ok-but-no-cigar" sounds that always needed loads of @rsing about in sound-checks. The single channel route gave me a sh1thot basic tone I could use for 2-3 hours without getting bored/frustrated with it, leaving me free to perform.
I was the same as you Andy, but now I have my Martamp Orion I've been converted :lol:
As with most guitar gear, you need to try the really good stuff. If you've been used to £500 channel switching amps there's compromise there and it has an impact on the tone. You should try a Bogner Shiva, or the new high end Hughes & Kettener stuff or even a Rivera ;)
I set my Orion up to have:
* Clean channel set for 'just breaking up' Stones rhythm
* Gain channel set for 'rock rhythm' a la AC/DC
I then use a Tubescreamer type to boost either channel, plus I have the gain boost on the lead channel to use too. Both channels on the amp are completely independent and can be set exactly how you want. I can cover loads of tonal ground without having to have a Joe Bonamassa multiple amp rig......
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+1 to JPF.
For me it's quite simple. The blonde bassman is my dream amp. I'd probably go for a reliable clone, namely the Gomez El Sonido. They can be had for around the €1500 mark, so it would be silly of me to pay more for any other amp.
However, if I had one, I'd probably still use my engl Classic Tube on most occasions. It has two switchable gain modes (wouldn't call them channels, I can make them sound identical without touching the EQ, only the gain knob) and master volume. It sounds more than decent without having to be ear bleeding loud.
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I was actually wondering that Dave - "try the really good stuff" - the switching amps I tried were years ago. I can only remember details of two:
One was a Laney AOR in the mid to late 80s - the "pro tube" range evolved into these. Really I wanted a second one of my trusty protub master volume beastie, but you couldn't get them. Someone was trying to sell me their AOR. It was fantastic in the bedroom, but in rehearsals and a couple of gigs it was not so good.
The other was some Marshall thing the other guitarist in a later band used in the late 90s. It was 2x12 combo, it was a grey/silvery sort of colour. I think it was "2" channels with some sort of boost that made a "third". We fought with it for ages, and eventually he got a sublime lead tone out of it (might have been his vibrato though!), but it just couldn't compete with the tones I was getting out of my trusty old Laney protube. Every single rehearsal/soundcheck there'd be a moment when he'd be sitting gazing enviously at it :lol:. When we recorded, the only reason he didn't use my amp was because we'd found the "sublime lead tone" by then...
But yeah, 20-odd years on... (I did drool a bit when you first started posting about the Orion).
Still, I don't need an amp at all at the moment... and I've already got three knocking about :lol:
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Sounds like you were playing a Silver Jubilee Marshall? I'd like to try one of those one day...
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Sounds like you were playing a Silver Jubilee Marshall? I'd like to try one of those one day...
That's what I've been wondering in the last few years - but it didn't seem half as nice as the present day legends about them seem to suggest :lol:
He bought it new, I think. I suspect in the early/mid 90s. I only played through it a few times in rehearsals, while we were trying to sort out a tone for him, I certainly wouldn't have swapped it for mine... I suspect he's still got it, I'll see if I can track him down and ask him what it is/was.
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For me it's quite simple. The blonde bassman is my dream amp. I'd probably go for a reliable clone, namely the Gomez El Sonido. They can be had for around the €1500 mark, so it would be silly of me to pay more for any other amp.
I wouldn't be worried about gigging a genuine Blonde Bassman. The Fender amps from that era are really well built and rarely go wrong once the caps have been sorted out. I know a couple of players who Blonde Bassmans as their main gigging amp with now problems.
The Blonde/Brown Tolex era of Fender amps seem to have fallen off the radar somewhat when compared with the Tweed and Blackface amps.
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Furthermore, many bands hire backline, so they tend to use easily sourced amps, which is mainly Fender or Marshall. They also don't tend to use channel switching amps........
This is very true.
So far, with only one exception, every single band I have every dealt with who requires a hired backline asks for:
1x Mesa Dual/Triple Recifier OR Marshall JCM2000 OR Peavey 5150 w/1x 4x12.
And I don't mean they ask specifically for one of the three, I mean they ask for any one of those three, whichever is easiest, and almost never specifiy even brands of cabs. Sometimes they'll put "Of decent quality" behind the 4x12 and sometimes they ask for two 4x12s.
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Is that in your "sub-genre of metal" experience though?
I can't see your average mainstream band requesting 5150s or rectumfryers!!!! :lol:
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Is that in your "sub-genre of metal" experience though?
I can't see your average mainstream band requesting 5150s or rectumfryers!!!! :lol:
My own festival isn't just metal, and it covers a lot of ground within the metal spectrum. But that's experience from working with shops and hire companies that supply all the major venues in Scotland with gear for shows. My pal is Bryan Adams guitar tech for instance, and I know what he has in his own set up, but I know what he's happy to accept if his own rig isn't going to be there, and suffice to say, Cornish pedals and '59 AC30's aren't on his rider :wink: Simply it's that if you're hiring gear, everywhere will have loads of 5150's, Rectos, JCM2000s, Twins and AC30s. So you're as well asking for those.
Generally, I was trying to illustrate that the guys playing to thousands of people touring the world will pretty much get on stage and get on with it, whereas the folks playing to fifty folk in the Red Lion are really, really specific about what they're using.
Now that's not to say there's anything wrong with that, just that the idea of expensive gear being "Pro" gear, often amuses me.
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...... Generally, I was trying to illustrate that the guys playing to thousands of people touring the world will pretty much get on stage and get on with it, whereas the folks playing to fifty folk in the Red Lion are really, really specific about what they're using.
Now that's not to say there's anything wrong with that, just that the idea of expensive gear being "Pro" gear, often amuses me.
I claim no experience but that sounds the most believable scenario to me. Well observed.
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I wonder why the majority of people seem to prefer single channel amps? I'm the same, the last switchers I had were a H@K Triamp and VHT Pitbull - fine amps but they don't hang around long as somethings fundamentally wrong with them and I'm not sure if I know what it is.
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Probably because one channel is 'better' than the other and doesn't get used? So people tend to specialise and get a 'nicer' single channel amp instead?
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Yea, but, no, but... with the level of amps we're talking about, all channels ought to be equally good.
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I wonder why the majority of people seem to prefer single channel amps? I'm the same, the last switchers I had were a H@K Triamp and VHT Pitbull - fine amps but they don't hang around long as somethings fundamentally wrong with them and I'm not sure if I know what it is.
Now I've been using modellors in the safety of my living room for a few years, I think I know what it might be:
What we never-to-be-satisfied guitarists really want for, say, a three channel clean/crunch/lead set-up, is three separate amplifiers with their own dedicated pre-amp, EQ, and power stages, probably all going through the same set of speakers! :lol:
Back when I was trying switchable channel amps, there was always some sort of compromise with channels sharing bits - you get your lead sounding good and the crunch was mushy or the clean was yuk, or whatever... You could get fabulous sounds out of each channel, but at the expense of the other channels - you'd need to tweak a load of knobs everytime you switched, so the whole point of buying the thing went right out the window the minute you got your new toy in front of the band at a rehearsal! (who else has experience of bassists/drummers moaning or laughing at them on proud presentation of your new amp? :lol:)
Nowadays, I'm guessing some folks do make three completely separate amps in a box - but I'm also guessing a decent reliable one might cost a fair bit!!
I did wonder about rack mounting preamps and power amps etc... but I was way too poor for that at the time...
And when it comes down to it, I'm a bit of luddite blues/rocknroller... I do want more than just one big knob on the front/top/wherever saying "More!!", but I do feel most comfortable with the tried and tested Gain/Bass/Mid/Treble/Presence/Master configuration, no switches, extra gains, mid-boosts, sweeps, etc, etc...
So I always ended up back with my single channel amp in that config.
I'd set my guitar volume to 7, tone to 5ish, and then dial in my crunch tone on the amp at a volume that seemed to match the band/venue. Most of the time I'd also have a little stomp (the original Guvnor was the last thing I used) set to kick me over the top of the band when I wanted it, but even without that, those settings would usually give me clean/crunch/lead, all controllable from the guitar alone.
I think that once I'd learnt to control a single channel amp like that, and used it satisfyingly and reliably in front of people enough times, then all the "jack-of-all-trades" amps that I could actually afford seemed a lot less attractive... :lol:
Do remember that, other than getting my amps out occassionally to see if they still work, I haven't tried an amplifier in over 10 years now though. Like I said earlier, if I was to gig again I'd want my old Laney serviced and that would be it... if that failed, I'd very likely be contacting one or all of the chaps on here to see what they could make me. I suspect my tastes in gain etc would actually bring me in under £2k at the moment!
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I've always used single channel amps and so do most of the players I know.
I think that there are several reasons for this:
1) If you don't have much time to set up (think weddings!) then its quicker.
2) Most players over-estimate the number of sound they "need" live. You only really need a great "rhythm" sound and (if you play lead) a great lead sound, ie two sounds. The main reason for this is often the desire to try to recreate sounds heard on recordings, which lets face it are very carefully mixed and processed in the studio, often using very high end studio gear.
3) Most guitarist under-estimate the amount of sounds they can get from the kit they already have eg you have loads of sounds on a Les Paul just using the volume/tone knobs and pickup selections, and that's without coils tapping etc.
4) For really big shows most players use multiple amp set ups and will have dedicated amps for different sounds. These will often be switched by their tech, and the FOH engineer will ride the faders to balance the lead and rhythm volumes. Of course if your playing that size of venue the cost of the guitarists' amps is negligible (and tax deductible!!) in the scale of keeping the show on the road.
Personally, I've never felt a need for a channel switching amp and have always use the volume control on the guitar to adjust levels (although obviously this requires discipline.....). The KISS principle.
When I've played in more rock setting I augmented my setup with a distortion pedal and a wah-wah. I've also occasionally dabbled with a Fulltone Deja Vibe.
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Another class post jpf :D
Especially 3)
Obviously everyone can use their own kit how they like, and they play different stuff than I do, but whenever I read "I always set the tone on 10" etc, I always feel a little bit sad for what they might be missing from the kit they've already bought...
Some years back I got a couple of teenage guitarists into the controls on their guitars, they just didn't believe me, but I said "do it, turn the tone control to half, then set your amp up - come back to me in a few weeks and tell me what you've found..."
I even showed them what my amp sounded like if I turned the guitar tone up to 10 (not especially pretty but very "ok you're gonna die now" in a rock and roll sort of way)... and I explained it does get used in a gig, but only for those "special" moments :lol:
When they came back, one of them could see what I meant, but still preferred the "no fiddling" method. The other one came back as if it had been some sort of "road to damascus" moment for them :lol:
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Great replies. I find changing between tones at the guitar end alot faster than finding the button to stand on and also some switchers have a 'pop' when changing channels. Are there no reasons from a building pov that tone would be different/better in a single chan amp then, or is it all in my head?
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Most guitarist under-estimate the amount of sounds they can get from the kit they already have eg you have loads of sounds on a Les Paul just using the volume/tone knobs and pickup selections, and that's without coils tapping etc.
^ +1
Speaking as a Les Paul player, you can get much more range from them than most people ever give them credit for. I'm a big fan of using the middle position for rhythm - set the bridge volume up full and the neck volume around halfway. this knocks enough edge off so that when you flip to the bridge for solos it really cuts through.
For clean tones, I just roll the volumes back - simples.
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^Same here, I dont even have coil taps and get a load of good sounds from my LPs. I find them more versatile than strats actually, which doesnt seem to be the usual case.
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The two volume/two tone plus 3-way toggle setup is exactly why I like my '72 Tele Custom. By mixing the middle position you can get all sorts of tones. This is one badass Tele :D
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i like single channel amps, and I like multi-channel amps. I think it depends on what type of music you play (there are very few single-channel high gainers, for example), how versatile you need it to be, whether or not you can afford/use different amps for different sounds, etc. etc. etc.
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I've always used single channel amps and so do most of the players I know.
I think that there are several reasons for this:
1) If you don't have much time to set up (think weddings!) then its quicker.
2) Most players over-estimate the number of sound they "need" live. You only really need a great "rhythm" sound and (if you play lead) a great lead sound, ie two sounds. The main reason for this is often the desire to try to recreate sounds heard on recordings, which lets face it are very carefully mixed and processed in the studio, often using very high end studio gear.
3) Most guitarist under-estimate the amount of sounds they can get from the kit they already have eg you have loads of sounds on a Les Paul just using the volume/tone knobs and pickup selections, and that's without coils tapping etc.
4) For really big shows most players use multiple amp set ups and will have dedicated amps for different sounds. These will often be switched by their tech, and the FOH engineer will ride the faders to balance the lead and rhythm volumes. Of course if your playing that size of venue the cost of the guitarists' amps is negligible (and tax deductible!!) in the scale of keeping the show on the road.
Personally, I've never felt a need for a channel switching amp and have always use the volume control on the guitar to adjust levels (although obviously this requires discipline.....). The KISS principle.
When I've played in more rock setting I augmented my setup with a distortion pedal and a wah-wah. I've also occasionally dabbled with a Fulltone Deja Vibe.
I see and agree (hence why I asked you about that 1987 today :O)
I think there are probably two amps I would need, a Plexi and then something else for the brootalz, as I doubt that a Plexi can pull off convincing Rammstein tones. But for my top40 band a plexi style amp with 3-4 pedals would be perfect. The amp should deliver light breakup, so you can for example play the intro to Pink's Sober with it, and pedals would do the rest.
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Yea, but, no, but... with the level of amps we're talking about, all channels ought to be equally good.
I agree, which is why I love my Orion ;)
A clean-ish amp with pedals will get you there, I agree, but I prefer the FEEL of amp distortion/overdrive rather than pedals. That feel is what inspires me, and makes me play better, thus providing a better performance for the gig-goer :D
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Yea, but, no, but... with the level of amps we're talking about, all channels ought to be equally good.
I agree, which is why I love my Orion ;)
A clean-ish amp with pedals will get you there, I agree, but I prefer the FEEL of amp distortion/overdrive rather than pedals. That feel is what inspires me, and makes me play better, thus providing a better performance for the gig-goer :D
Yea, I rely on the amps gain too - pedals just aren't the same.
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agreed about amp distortion. a slight boost can be ok, if it's being put over amp distortion, but a pedal over a clean channel (unless it's a pretty light overdrive, which can also be ok), not really a fan.
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I like the way this thread has developed over the last couple of pages - good discussion guys, I wish I had something to add! :D
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agreed about amp distortion. a slight boost can be ok, if it's being put over amp distortion, but a pedal over a clean channel (unless it's a pretty light overdrive, which can also be ok), not really a fan.
I agree with that. But what is bugging me is that if you use the Amp's distortion (which I do on all my amps) you have to use the loop to get delays sounding right in overdrive (which I always do). If it's only light crunch on the amp and you kick it with a pedal, you can put the delay between drive and amp and it's fine (what most people do on 1Ch amps, like a Plexi).
Whenever I used loops, even the better ones (new gen. Shiva, the XTC which is switchable, the Einstein) then I can stillrecognise tone degradation. Must be a level thing mainly, as I think amp builders have to do a lot of attenuating down and amplifying up again before Send and after Return. This impacts the integrity of the signal flow (which is the biggest advantage of tube heads vs. tube racks.
There are hardly any amps that I've tried, where the signal stays as punchy, meaty and juicy on the drive channel with the loop in use. Maybe the Einstein was Ok, but the overall tone of that amp wasn't too much my thing anyways, a bit too much sound and not enough tone, if this is an expression that makes sense - just wasn't as lively or organic as some other amps I owned.
So that's why I think using a Plexi style amp on the verge of breakup together with a Wah, a Boost, an Overdrive and a Delay (+ maybe a Chorus/Trem or sth) could be the way to go. But it would need a PPIMV for me.
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I hear what you're saying about loops Hunter. I've got Martin working on a valve driven stand alone buffered loop for me at the moment which I'm hopping will not have the problems you're describing....
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I hear what you're saying about loops Hunter. I've got Martin working on a valve driven stand alone buffered loop for me at the moment which I'm hopping will not have the problems you're describing....
One criteria when i was looking for amps was to have no FX loop. to keep the signal flow basic and go straight from pre to power amp.
I realise the disadvantages with this, but i don't run too many effects so it doesnt matter. at most i run a wah, delay, and chorus in front of the amp and thats that. though im very careful about the sound when i DO run all those.
i've also started backing off my guitars volume a touch just to get a slightly more... percusive?... tone and to take out some top hi end. It works really well on both my soldano and uberschall.
the loop on the uberschall isnt something ive played with other than to use it as another volume control.
it tried putting my parababy wah in it and turning the channel level right down (to have the wah post-distortion) but this actually sounded aweful.
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My Orion has a basic series effects loop as stock with a bypass switch ;)
How do you get on with the delay into the front of a distorted amp? I have a Carbon Copy and it sounds like ass into the lead channel! :lol:
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when i looked at the soldano i didn't want a switch in that place either. i wanted a super basic signal path that still gave me the tone i was after. Obviously the Uber is totally different.
i use a DD-3 or a Malekko 300. in front of the uber it just sounds drier, which is fine with me. I like a dry doubling effect thats really subtle. which is why i only use 300ms delay. in the loop the settings need to be altered to get the same effect. i wouldnt say one way sounds terrible, they just sound different. the malekko sounds EPIC in the loop, not as open up front.
When i use the chorus in front of the amp, i generally turn my volume down and clean up at the same time.
i want to try my dunlop wah in loop on the Uber and see what craziness that brings.
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My Carbon Copy oscillates like crazy if I have the preamp gain high on my 2203.
I prefer to set it to crunch and boost though, so its usually fine
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My Carbon Copy oscillates like crazy if I have the preamp gain high on my 2203.
I prefer to set it to crunch and boost though, so its usually fine
i dont have any problems. like i said, it just sounds less pronounced when in front. which for me is fine.
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I agree with that. But what is bugging me is that if you use the Amp's distortion (which I do on all my amps) you have to use the loop to get delays sounding right in overdrive (which I always do). If it's only light crunch on the amp and you kick it with a pedal, you can put the delay between drive and amp and it's fine (what most people do on 1Ch amps, like a Plexi).
Whenever I used loops, even the better ones (new gen. Shiva, the XTC which is switchable, the Einstein) then I can stillrecognise tone degradation. Must be a level thing mainly, as I think amp builders have to do a lot of attenuating down and amplifying up again before Send and after Return. This impacts the integrity of the signal flow (which is the biggest advantage of tube heads vs. tube racks.
There are hardly any amps that I've tried, where the signal stays as punchy, meaty and juicy on the drive channel with the loop in use. Maybe the Einstein was Ok, but the overall tone of that amp wasn't too much my thing anyways, a bit too much sound and not enough tone, if this is an expression that makes sense - just wasn't as lively or organic as some other amps I owned.
So that's why I think using a Plexi style amp on the verge of breakup together with a Wah, a Boost, an Overdrive and a Delay (+ maybe a Chorus/Trem or sth) could be the way to go. But it would need a PPIMV for me.
yeah, that's a good point. I don't really use effects all that much, so it's not really a major problem for me. Or at least, I'm using distortion/overdrive so much more (probably three quarters of the time) that I'm going to go for the better distortion. :)
another point i'd make about multi-channel amps is that it might be psychological, too. you kind of expect to get 3 amps (if the amp has 3 channels), and that's not really going to happen. If you get 3 good sounds (or one very good and 2 decent), you're doing well, kind of thing.
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My Orion has a basic series effects loop as stock with a bypass switch ;)
How do you get on with the delay into the front of a distorted amp? I have a Carbon Copy and it sounds like ass into the lead channel! :lol:
...loop stuff
Have a look at this http://www.suhrguitars.com/tonetools.aspx#minimix
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Have a look at this http://www.suhrguitars.com/tonetools.aspx#minimix
That's OK if you have a level control on the pedals you're putting in the loop. My chorus, for example, only has depth and rate so the level of control isn't as good.
Martin is cooking up something a bit more flexible and interesting ;)
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Please let us know more as soon as you can 8)
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the guys on the Matamp forum need this FX loop answer too!
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Interesting how this thread has rather moved towards another topic...
I'm sure my previous posts fx "loops" can be found out there in the ether, however for those who missed them.....
The main problem with fx "loops" are that they aren't loops; they are inserts, and are usually a gain structure disaster.
In pro audio environment (say in a mixing consul) you would only use gain control processing in an insert, ie compression, limiting etc.
On a mixing desk all other effects would be added by sending signal to an aux bus and remixing this with the original signal. This is the best way of adding effects to a signal.
Ideally you want a parallel loop, with adjustable send and return levels, and run the effects return with no dry signal ie 100% effected.
It is quite possible to design a parallel effects loops that adds only one very linear triode stage to the signal path (which can be unity gain) and works very well. Unfortunately this adds significantly to the cost of the loop, which I expect is the reason a lot of "loops" aren't.
Regardless, unless you feel you need to have control of your effects, in my opinion, better results are achieved by micing the amp and adding the effects via the PA.
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Not everyone mics up though JPF - we backline so the PA route isn't an option.
Ideally you want a parallel loop, with adjustable send and return levels, and run the effects return with no dry signal ie 100% effected.
Indeed. That's what I would need ;)
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Not everyone mics up though JPF - we backline so the PA route isn't an option.
Ideally you want a parallel loop, with adjustable send and return levels, and run the effects return with no dry signal ie 100% effected.
Indeed. That's what I would need ;)
Sure, a lot of bands don't mic the backline, thank goodness, many are too loud with out sound reinforcement!
However, there's nothing stopping you micing your amp and just using the PA for fx, although obviously this would depend on what fx you had/wanted, and what control you wanted over them, how many spare channels you have on your PA etc.
Parallel is the way to go though if you want the "no comprise" fx loop.
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In my opinion, virtually all the bands wo aren't micing their backline, should be.
Use smaller amps, mic everything, and make use of your PA, if you do so and use a decent PA, then without exception, your band will sound better.
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In my opinion, virtually all the bands wo aren't micing their backline, should be.
Use smaller amps, mic everything, and make use of your PA, if you do so and use a decent PA, then without exception, your band will sound better.
this depends on the PA or the venue though.
played to a hundred people in sweden last week and although the venue was small, we had 4x12's & heads, only the bass drum, snare, and vocs had mics. sometimes thats all you get. sometimes you get less, sometimes you can mic up everything.
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Use smaller amps, mic everything, and make use of your PA, if you do so and use a decent PA, then without exception, your band will sound better.
But smaller amps don't sound the same. I can't do a YC/DC? gig with an Epi valve junior. Sorry.
I'm sure your metal guys won't switch away from Mesa and Matamps too?
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Not everyone mics up though JPF - we backline so the PA route isn't an option.
Ideally you want a parallel loop, with adjustable send and return levels, and run the effects return with no dry signal ie 100% effected.
Indeed. That's what I would need ;)
... and gold relais switchable please.
Alternatively then the loop can also function as a lead boost.
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Not everyone mics up though JPF - we backline so the PA route isn't an option.
Ideally you want a parallel loop, with adjustable send and return levels, and run the effects return with no dry signal ie 100% effected.
Indeed. That's what I would need ;)
TF/JPF - do all modern effects/stomps do a wet-only 100% affected output? (I haven't used one for years :lol:)
Thinking about it, it also means you'd stick your delays, reverbs, and modulation effects here, and the boosts/overdrives, compressors(?), wahs, etc in front of the amp?
I won't enter into the "but smaller amps don't sound the same" argument :lol: Oh alright, I will a little: I believe they can but it depends what parameters you're trying to satisfy all at the same time - front of house, on stage, etc - and the quality of the foldback available to you with the PA... if one is used to using a big f@ck-off stack jobbie, there'll be some compromises that the player has to get used to initially, but in the long run I believe nfe is right - if the guitarist gets used to it and gets enough "vibes" so he/she can perform, then the overall effect for the punter will be better...
I can even hear Philly going "wow, I can leave my earplugs at home!!" (apologies if you don't use them Philly :lol: - I used to always take cotton-wool to gigs)
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TF/JPF - do all modern effects/stomps do a wet-only 100% affected output? (I haven't used one for years :lol:)
Well pro effects units will (Lexicon etc). As for pedals, I'm sure some do......
Thinking about it, it also means you'd stick your delays, reverbs, and modulation effects here, and the boosts/overdrives, compressors(?), wahs, etc in front of the amp?
Yes, I would recommend using modulation fx in the loop (as you would do on a mixing desk). Gain related fx, boost, compression etc can be in front of the amp to help drive the pre-amp, or can be use in an insert (ie a series fx "loop").
I won't enter into the "but smaller amps don't sound the same" argument :lol: Oh alright, I will a little: I believe they can but it depends what parameters you're trying to satisfy all at the same time - front of house, on stage, etc - and the quality of the foldback available to you with the PA... if one is used to using a big f@ck-off stack jobbie, there'll be some compromises that the player has to get used to initially, but in the long run I believe nfe is right - if the guitarist gets used to it and gets enough "vibes" so he/she can perform, then the overall effect for the punter will be better...
Well the guitarist in one of the bands I play in uses a Tele through 7W amp we built for him and gets a great Who/ Lizzy rock sound (especially when he plays the write notes!), which we mic up. The amp has a 12" speaker (G12H), which helps a lot. Eventually we will probably make him a 15W amp to give a little more clean headroom and put less through the PA.
You are going to struggle to get a good rock sound using an 8" speaker.
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Since this is turning into an effects loop thread..
Is it at all possible to run FX after the head and before the cab. Surely that would be ideal if you are relying on power amp distortion.
Does the pedal / unit creat a different resistance?
Is the signal likely to destroy the FX unit?
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Is it at all possible to run FX after the head and before the cab. Surely that would be ideal if you are relying on power amp distortion.
Does the pedal / unit creat a different resistance?
Is the signal likely to destroy the FX unit?
You cant run FX between amp and speaker - will damage FX and maybe amp too
Closest way you can do this is what EVH used to do
Use a PAlmer loadbox/speaker sim to take out a line level signal and pass that through an FX rack and then through a separate power amp and speakers
Think he ended up with his main amp and 4x12 dry and direct and the tapped off FX signal going through an H&H 800w power amp and through two more 4x121 for the wet signal
That way he kept his core tone really strong and added FX for colour without diminishing the core tone
Brian May always has always used separate amps for the echos from his echoplex/delay unit to avoid intermodulation distortion
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Ah, thanks. I thought it was an EVH thing, just I seemed to think it was an all wet signal.
Sounds expensive though
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Well the guitarist in one of the bands I play in uses a Tele through 7W amp we built for him and gets a great Who/ Lizzy rock sound (especially when he plays the write notes!), which we mic up. The amp has a 12" speaker (G12H), which helps a lot. Eventually we will probably make him a 15W amp to give a little more clean headroom and put less through the PA.
You are going to struggle to get a good rock sound using an 8" speaker.
Yeah, my reasoning was based on what I used to use live. It's a 50w m/v valve amp, but it's 1x12 combo (open backed).
For Vocal-PA gigs it was plenty - although I have to admit (for the stack & 2x12 guys) it could sound a bit boxy out front if I couldn't get a good position. We usually managed to tweak it enough to get it acceptable, though.
Our preferred method was in bigger gigs where everything was mic'd. Really early on I learnt that I needed to put the amp at the side of the stage, pointing across the stage, even behind the PA stack if possible. That meant my backline was contributing as little as possible to out front, giving the engineer more control. It also meant we needed little if any guitar in the foldback.
It might not have looked very rock n roll, but out front it sounded HUGE and very rock n roll :lol:
With what I've learnt since about amps etc, I believe a 15W with no master would have done me fine :D (probably even the Vocal-PA jobs)
I don't think I've ever played through an 8" speaker, but I did use a combo with a 10" (a Peterson P120G - anyone else ever used one of them?), it was OK live, but enough to show me I wanted 12".
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Is it at all possible to run FX after the head and before the cab. Surely that would be ideal if you are relying on power amp distortion.
Does the pedal / unit creat a different resistance?
Is the signal likely to destroy the FX unit?
You cant run FX between amp and speaker - will damage FX and maybe amp too
Closest way you can do this is what EVH used to do
Use a PAlmer loadbox/speaker sim to take out a line level signal and pass that through an FX rack and then through a separate power amp and speakers
Think he ended up with his main amp and 4x12 dry and direct and the tapped off FX signal going through an H&H 800w power amp and through two more 4x121 for the wet signal
That way he kept his core tone really strong and added FX for colour without diminishing the core tone
Brian May always has always used separate amps for the echos from his echoplex/delay unit to avoid intermodulation distortion
that's pretty much what this guy had built in his HO Attenuator/reamp box: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=417781
Basically an attenuator that reamps the attenuated signal with a SS amp, plus a mixable FX amp for running a small 2x100W SS W/D rig
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Use smaller amps, mic everything, and make use of your PA, if you do so and use a decent PA, then without exception, your band will sound better.
But smaller amps don't sound the same. I can't do a YC/DC? gig with an Epi valve junior. Sorry.
I'm sure your metal guys won't switch away from Mesa and Matamps too?
No they likely wont, but they're still pretty much always mic'd up. Even if there isn't much of it in the mix, you're at least getting a proper spread so the crowd can actually hear what's going on rather than just vocals, one guitar a hint of bass and cymbals. Plus, the day I find a band who can get a decent balance and mix going on without having the guitars, bass and at least some drums through the PA, I'll buy you another Modern Eagle.
Bands using just a vocal PA and relying on backline for everything else, in my experience, usually sound abysmal.
Oh,and on the smaller amps don't sound the same bit. No, they don't. But smaller amps with a decent mix will ALWAYS sound better than bigger amps mixed badly. It's about what sounds best for the punter overall. Not what sounds best for the player in isolation. Or it should be.
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Bands using just a vocal PA and relying on backline for everything else, in my experience, usually sound abysmal.
sometimes thats all you can do. you can turn up to a venue and your lucky if they have 1 mic with their PA let alone 2 or 3 or more. in my experience, its down to the band to make the most of what they have in a situation like that. Its doesnt have to spoil a good show.
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Bands using just a vocal PA and relying on backline for everything else, in my experience, usually sound abysmal.
sometimes thats all you can do. you can turn up to a venue and your lucky if they have 1 mic with their PA let alone 2 or 3 or more. in my experience, its down to the band to make the most of what they have in a situation like that. Its doesnt have to spoil a good show.
You're talking about original bands, Dave is talking about pub bands turning up with their own PA (I presume they have their own PA, anyway, I don't know many cover bands who don't use their own).
In saying that, I've very, very rarely turned up at an original gig who didn't have the facility to mic a whole band outwith squat gigs. But then I've been drilled into being ultra professional about that stuff and having full tech specs and backline on contracts well before the gig.
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But smaller amps don't sound the same.
agreed. this "use smaller amps" paradigm shift is almost as dangerous as the old "you have to use 100 watts if you're a pro" philosophy. For some types of music and sounds you need that bigger amp, even if you can't turn it up all the way.
Don't ge me wrong, if you can find a smaller amp which still does the sounds you want, and your current amp is too loud, by all means go for it. Just it's not guaranteed that it will sound the same, in fact I'd be surprised if it did.
fair enough if the smaller amp still sounds better in the mix, as nfe said, but if it doesn't do the type of tone you want, will it really sound better in the mix? I dunno.
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Definately worth it. I ordered a Vox AC30 replica from David Petersen. Sounds soo much better than anything Vox produces at the moment. Play the normal channel with my Red Special wooow. Brilliant channel through my Strat is to die for.
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I'm with Dave on this one, there is a grunt and weight to your tone with bigger amps that is just not available with lower wattage amps. I'm a 100w head/4x12 type of player and like the tone/feel I get from this type of setup even when I'm using the amp quite clean and getting the OD from a pedal.
However I do still love the tone of small class A amps and acknowledge that cranking these amps is more practical if you're the type of player who wants all their OD from the output stage. The problem is, trying to gig with a 10w amp is not a good idea in a rock band with a loud drummer, thats just not going to cut (even if we're only talking stage volume). I have plans to build a 30w parallel single ended (SE) amp for smaller gigs so I can get that sweet SE tone at decent volumes.
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A modified question
Is £2000 too much for an amp that you've heard clips of, liked a lot, heard descriptions of that are right up your street, but never played or heard in person?
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Not in the scenario you've described. You've heard clips, descriptions suit etc so it's very likely to be a match for you.
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A modified question
Is £2000 too much for an amp that you've heard clips of, liked a lot, heard descriptions of that are right up your street, but never played or heard in person?
In general this is too much a risk, unless the amp is from a Canadian custom builder who starts with "P" and ends on "s" :lol:
I would really enjoy some Peters clips and a review from you soon!
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Is it a lot of risk though, Hunter? If you've heard clips and like the way it's been designed?
I would have bought a Bogner Shiva based on clips and spec had I not met Martin from Martamp.
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Is it a lot of risk though, Hunter?
That's why I want MDV to buy one first, so my risk is less :lol:
Yeah I'm a bad bad boy ...
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:lol:
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I've just had a look at those Peters amps. They don't look any more 'special' than an MJW to me. Are they just a nice two-channel Marshall type, or am I missing something?
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I've just had a look at those Peters amps. They don't look any more 'special' than an MJW to me. Are they just a nice two-channel Marshall type, or am I missing something?
Marshall type is relative. The Halo is a really great clean and the second channel can be very brootal too, depending on the design you chose. To me the Chimaira clips I heard sound nothing like a Marshall to me, more like between an Uebershall and an EVH stype setup. So yeah, Marshall very remotely. I don't think the Orion can have as much gain as the Gryphon or Chimaira and stay tight and transparent, but prove me wrong.
One thing that is special are also his tricks, switches and controls to get a very complex fine tuning to make the amp sound big at any volume. And then of course his designs have a very transparent and powerful loop, external bias points etc.
He also uses top notch components. All these add to the price.
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Gotcha. Martin should try and do something similar shouldn't he? I'd be interested to see what he could do in the high gain area....
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Some more info on what you get:
(http://www.petersamplification.com/guts1.jpg)
(http://www.petersamplification.com/guts2.jpg)
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Nicely made amp - I know Martin could build that....
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He also uses top notch components. All these add to the price.
Nice looking amps. The components are standard stuff, not especially expensive, I use the same. The top one is put together using some fairly laborious techniques (apart from the preamp heaters!) which will take extra time (cost more) but do nothing for the sound, other than keep things stable.
There are some tricks in the circuit, presumably to deal with high gain issues. Nice to see some original thinking going on (along with some "standard" stuff.
I have no doubt I could build something similar for a similar price. Forget exchange rates, as a dollar buys what a pound can, we'd be talking around the £2000 mark. Put a deposit down, and I can 100% guarantee you that you will love the sound. I will work with the owner until they do. :)
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Gotcha. Martin should try and do something similar shouldn't he? I'd be interested to see what he could do in the high gain area....
When I requested this several months ago I was firmly told by both you and Martin that he wouldn't be doing high gain... ever! 8)
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I've just had a look at those Peters amps. They don't look any more 'special' than an MJW to me. Are they just a nice two-channel Marshall type, or am I missing something?
Marshall type is relative. The Halo is a really great clean and the second channel can be very brootal too, depending on the design you chose. To me the Chimaira clips I heard sound nothing like a Marshall to me, more like between an Uebershall and an EVH stype setup. So yeah, Marshall very remotely. I don't think the Orion can have as much gain as the Gryphon or Chimaira and stay tight and transparent, but prove me wrong.
One thing that is special are also his tricks, switches and controls to get a very complex fine tuning to make the amp sound big at any volume. And then of course his designs have a very transparent and powerful loop, external bias points etc.
He also uses top notch components. All these add to the price.
Yeah, there are many aspects of Peters that are appealing to me
- Fine tuned meticulously and obsessively to be transparent, responsive, dynamic metal amps (partly with the gryphon, largely with the hydra and completely with the chimera: the polaris looks more marshall, maybe the gryphon too (but I’ve heard A/B clips of a gryphon KILL a JCM800, so idk).
- Power section controls tuned to get as good a sound as possible at low volume
- They can take any power tube
- The clips sound awesome. Even the ones with rubbish camera mics placed randomly sound great. The chimera sounds most to me like channel 3 of a VH4, actually, but….not: its got a throaty, vicious snarl, punishing, tight low end and high attack to it but is still organic, unlike the VH4 (from the clips, of course) and sounds like it can be dialled in to have much more chime and shimmer if you want it to (as some have it and some don’t). It doesn’t sound anything like a marshall to me. The polaris is moderately JCM800 territory, though, from the clips. I think even the gryphon steps outside marshall levels of metal (save maybe the JVM).
- Doesn’t cost the earth (to me at least; in keeping with the thread, 2k is an amount I’m happy to pay for an amp that I really like, I just can't really know that I like it unless I’ve played through it!)
Martin, the idea of a custom build metal amp that I can help design (or at least bitch and whine about the sound until its changed to such a point that I like it) is very appealing indeed, but I’m not sure we’re on the same page here – I’m talking about a metal amp; something I gather you’re dead set against building? If that’s not the case, and if you aren’t kidding about it being an iterative job with tuning to my tastes, then I’d be interested in that yes and may have to have a word with you. But you should know that I don’t like marshalls :lol: ;)
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Give him a call mate, and have a chat with him. I'm sure he could come up with something that would suit you.
I think the previous comments about no high gain were that he wasn't going to sit in a corner and design something for a standard model. A specifc custom build for a customer is something different ;)
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When I requested this several months ago I was firmly told by both you and Martin that he wouldn't be doing high gain... ever! 8)
Not true! :lol: Here's what I said:
"To respond to the point about brootalz, I currently have no interest in doing an amp with that level of distortion for the simple reasons that (i) the advantages of handwired, turret board construction are less apparent with that much tonal mayhem and (ii) no-one has given me a deposit for one!"
That's not never! :P
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Martin, the idea of a custom build metal amp that I can help design (or at least bitch and whine about the sound until its changed to such a point that I like it) is very appealing indeed, but I’m not sure we’re on the same page here – I’m talking about a metal amp; something I gather you’re dead set against building? If that’s not the case, and if you aren’t kidding about it being an iterative job with tuning to my tastes, then I’d be interested in that yes and may have to have a word with you. But you should know that I don’t like marshalls :lol: ;)
Yes, I'm now interested in this. I've been honing down my standard higher gain stuff recently (including Goldstar and Roadstar TT's and Orions), so I'm keen now to move into this area. I've previously been reluctant (not dead-set :) ) mainly because of the R&D involved, which costs money. If, however, the price is right, there's no obstacle.
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When I requested this several months ago I was firmly told by both you and Martin that he wouldn't be doing high gain... ever! 8)
Not true! :lol: Here's what I said:
"To respond to the point about brootalz, I currently have no interest in doing an amp with that level of distortion for the simple reasons that (i) the advantages of handwired, turret board construction are less apparent with that much tonal mayhem and (ii) no-one has given me a deposit for one!"
That's not never! :P
Fairy snuff! Hopefully MDV will! 8)
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What am I, amp lab rat!?!? :lol:
Anywho, I have a horribly long and absurdly fussy email saved in my drafts (I apologise in advance, if I send it), will probably just phone anyway and am going to go to bed (been up about 27 hours now, no, dont ask) and play my powerball some more to see if I'm still ambivilent about it after that, must think about travel and stuff with repeated testing of an amp built around manchester, and will let anyone/everyone/martin mainly, really, know what I'm going to do when I've thought it over some more! So ner!
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Nah, it's not that simples I'm afraid, MDV. The forum has decided :lol: 8)
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^ also he should probably name the amp model "teh_brootalz" or something like that. it's the law.
A modified question
Is £2000 too much for an amp that you've heard clips of, liked a lot, heard descriptions of that are right up your street, but never played or heard in person?
depends on how disposable that £2000 is. to bill gates, it's probably not a problem... :lol:
but i know i bought my engl without trying it, though that's not quite the same as your situation because I had tried several of the other engl models.
That's why I want MDV to buy one first, so my risk is less :lol:
Yeah I'm a bad bad boy ...
:lol: :lol: :lol:
post of the week!
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There isnt anything else calling on it save just saving it.
There is merit to that. My general bordom is leading to plans, and plans usually need money. But I also want an amp.
Cant bloody sleep!
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what i normally do is be extremely cautious for about a year, buy nothing and religiously try to get to try as much gear as I can, then get pissed off, say, "$%&# it!" and then order about 5 things within the space of a week. :lol:
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Yeah
I'm $%&#ing horrible for buying amps though. I've probably spent as much on BKs as I plan to on this amp and not batted an eylid at any one of the purchases, I've bought guitars that cost as much without hesitation
But amps....I consider them the most important part of a setup, by quite a long way, which means it takes me YEARS to choose any! It was 3 years between deciding I need a new amp and getting one last time. A couple of years before that one (decision -> purchase that is).
Anyway, sent that email to martin. Poor chap.
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:lol:
yeah, i know what you mean. i do tend to overthink everything, though, not just amps. but it did take me probably 18 months (at least) before i got my engl, so i guess we're in the same boat. :lol: