Replacement machine heads for Les Paul?

[carlaz]

I'm pretty sure one of the original machine heads (the G-string one) on my 1990 Gibson Les Paul Standard is a bit screwed.  That machine broke on me when I was in the UK in the late-90s; I had it repaired once in 2000 in the US when I was back in Boston for a while, and again in the UK 2006 when I noticed it was acting wonky again.  In both cases, I trusted the luthiers' assertion they could fix the given machine head without replacing it, though in both cases, whatever fix they made "degraded" over time.  I think there's just something fundamentally screwed with it and it should just be replaced.  When the string tension is slackened, it actually wobbles a bit, which is rather alarming. In case you have lots of time on your hands ;) there is a little diagnostic video here: http://www.carlaz.com/music/images/headstock_peg_wobble.avi

This time, I think I'd best do the work myself -- mostly because I'm in Colombia :) and while there are likely to be some decent luthiers in Bogotá, I have no idea who they are!  So I'm thinking I should just order some "drop-in" style replacement machine heads to my US mailing address so I can pick them up next time I'm up there.  I really don't want to get into trying to enlarge the holes for the machine heads on my own!

I think I've got "Kluson-style" machine heads, but here are some (still) images:



So I'm interested to know what you BKP users think are the best-quality replacement machine heads that could directly replace my stock ones without serious surgery? :)

I understand Gotoh make some Kluson-style locking tuners that can go in without re-drilling, and that sounds good to me, but I've got almost zero expertise on this stuff!  I'm not too worried about the "look", just the quality -- and straightforward install. ;)  If folks think Grover make better drop-in tuners than the Gotoh Klusion-styles, then I'm cool with that!

[Philly Q]

Hard to tell from the pic - are the bushings the press-in type or the screw-in type?  Modern Gibson Kluson-style tuners are usually the latter, but I don't know what they were using in 1990 (assuming they're the original tuners?).

If they're press-in, I'd go for Gotoh SD90 Magnum Locks.  If they're screw-in, TonePros Klusons.  :D

[FELINEGUITARS]

Hard to tell from the pic - are the bushings the press-in type or the screw-in type?  Modern Gibson Kluson-style tuners are usually the latter, but I don't know what they were using in 1990 (assuming they're the original tuners?).

If they're press-in, I'd go for Gotoh SD90 Magnum Locks.  If they're screw-in, TonePros Klusons.  :D

Tonepros do push in ones too!

[Philly Q]

Tonepros do push in ones too!

True!  :D  

I was just thinking if Carl was going for locking tuners, the TonePros are only available with screw-in bushings (whereas the locking Gotohs only come with push-in ones).

For non-locking push-in tuners, you could go either way.  Personally I like the Gotohs because they have that vintage-style "bent metal" construction, whereas the TonePros are cast like modern tuners.

[FELINEGUITARS]

Ah - good point!

[carlaz]

Hard to tell from the pic - are the bushings the press-in type or the screw-in type?  Modern Gibson Kluson-style tuners are usually the latter, but I don't know what they were using in 1990 (assuming they're the original tuners?).

Erm .... I dunno!  :oops: I suppose I have to try pulling the thing apart to to be sure.  In the unlikely event that one can tell by looking at the exterior, here's a slightly fuzzy but full-res close-up of one of them:

I'm pretty sure my tuners are the original ones, and I understand that most '80s Gibson tuners were screw-in .... But I'm pretty clueless here! :) I don't know what they used in 1990 or since.

If they're press-in, I'd go for Gotoh SD90 Magnum Locks.  If they're screw-in, TonePros Klusons.  :D

There seem to be several TonePros Kluson type tuner variants .... I guess I need to ascertain whether I've got screw-ins or push-ins.  The TonePros TPKB3L seem to be the locking ones, though the whole B3 series seems intended to fit 25/64ths (.391) holes, which I have no idea whether I have or not.  Maybe that becomes clear if I know for sure whether its a screw-in or push-in?

[carlaz]

Mmm, checking the serial number on the headstock suggests the guitar is actually 1992, rather than 1990 as I had previously thought.  Screw-ins more likely?

[sambo]

No idea about the tuners... but.... I thought you lived in Cambridge!!!!!????

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :?  :lol:

[carlaz]

No idea about the tuners... but.... I thought you lived in Cambridge!!!!!????

I did! Until mid-September ... :)
Now I'm in South America.  8)

[Philly Q]

Hard to tell from the pic - are the bushings the press-in type or the screw-in type?  Modern Gibson Kluson-style tuners are usually the latter, but I don't know what they were using in 1990 (assuming they're the original tuners?).

Erm .... I dunno!  :oops: I suppose I have to try pulling the thing apart to to be sure.  In the unlikely event that one can tell by looking at the exterior, here's a slightly fuzzy but full-res close-up of one of them

Can you do a pic of the front of the tuner?  The screw-in type will have a hexagonal nut with a washer under it, the push-in type will just be a ring surrounding the tuner post.

Those look vintage-style to me, Gotohs or similar.  So they're probably press-in bushings with 11/32" holes.  If that's the case, you could go for Gotoh SD90-MG (locking) or SD90 (non-locking), or TonePros Kluson TPK33 (non-locking).

But let's see the front of the tuners first!  

[carlaz]

Can you do a pic of the front of the tuner?

Oh, good point! :)

The screw-in type will have a hexagonal nut with a washer under it, the push-in type will just be a ring surrounding the tuner post.
Those look vintage-style to me, Gotohs or similar.  So they're probably press-in bushings with 11/32" holes.  If that's the case, you could go for Gotoh SD90-MG (locking) or SD90 (non-locking), or TonePros Kluson TPK33 (non-locking).

Yeah, I'm not seeing anything that looks like a hexagonal nut with a washer underneath. It looks to me like a ring around the post (though the inside of the ring next to the post is raised more, and there's a flatter flange on the outside of the ring further from the post, but it all looks like a single piece to me; I can't see any crack or line between the two "heights" in the ring).

So you're probably right about the press-in bushing ....

Actually, I haven't thought a lot about locking vs. non-locking.  It just seemed like locking tuners might be easier and simpler. Anyone have any pros or cons?

I see some web sites overing "Gotoh Vintage Kluson-style Locking Tuners" with a part number "TK0735". Not sure if this is the same as the SD90-MG.

Apart from the cosmetics, cast or "bent metal", any words pro/con for Gotohs or Tonepros?

[Philly Q]

OK Carlaz, sit back, it just got more confusing....  :lol:

That looks to me like a conversion bushing.  It's where someone has decided they'd prefer vintage-style tuners on a guitar with 25/64" (10mm) holes in the headstock.  So you can buy oversized press-in bushings to fit the 25/64" holes.

I'd guess the ring of greyish-looking paint around the bushing is where the finish is lifting a little?  That'll be where the washer sat when the guitar had screw-plus-washer bushings.

So, you could use Gotoh SD90s (locking or non-locking) with the existing bushings, but I've found that the holes in conversion bushings are a little oversized for the Gotohs (they'll work, but it looks ugly).  

Your best bet is probably TonePros with screw-in bushings, the TPKB3 or TPKB3L sets.  I haven't tried them yet but I hear they're very good.

Of course with 25/64" holes you could go for Grovers, Sperzels or whatever you want.  But the TonePros will keep the more vintage look.

But I'd take a tuner off and measure the hole at the back first.

[Jonesy76]

Me.........

I'd stick a set of 18:1 Grover Rotomatics into it.  The bushings look like push in replacements so standard Grovers should fit right it, and the single screw of a Grover fits right into the bottom hole of the Kluson screw hole.
Yes you will be able to see half of the top holes from the original Klusons, but that's not an issue as far as I'm concerned.  The Grovers look cool, look vintage too, and keep my Les Pauls in tune far better than the Klusons.

[carlaz]

That looks to me like a conversion bushing .... I'd guess the ring of greyish-looking paint around the bushing is where the finish is lifting a little?  That'll be where the washer sat when the guitar had screw-plus-washer bushings.

Hmm, yeah, I'd never really paid attention before, but there's a pretty regular ring-like bit of damage to the finish around each of the shafts of the top-side of the headstock.  Once-upon-a-time larger washers seem likely. I got the guitar in '94. I think, and the serial number tells me it's a '92; I had assumed it had stock tuners -- but I guess I was wrong about that, too!

Most educational ....

Your best bet is probably TonePros with screw-in bushings, the TPKB3 or TPKB3L sets.  I haven't tried them yet but I hear they're very good.
But I'd take a tuner off and measure the hole at the back first.

Great -- trying to figure whether its a 9mm or 10mm hole! ;)  Ah, well, it does sound like some exploratory surgery is in order.

At least I see more vendors of Tonepros TPKB3(L) tuners on the web than I did of the Gotoh SD90-MGs. :)

[carlaz]

I'd stick a set of 18:1 Grover Rotomatics into it.  The bushings look like push in replacements so standard Grovers should fit right it, and the single screw of a Grover fits right into the bottom hole of the Kluson screw hole.

Interesting ... Doesn't the Jimmy Page signature model LP have Grover tuners of some kind?