Dirty Fingers

[Doadman]

OK, you may all be fed up of my deliberations about pickups but I've decided to simplify a way of isolating what I want in my guitar. I've thought about all sorts of sounds, players, bands etc. and it's bloody difficult to describe such a diverse range of sounds so I've decided to give up trying. Instead, I thought I'd try to pick just one sound and one player that would typify the sound I want even if it wasn't exact. That player is John Sykes and the sound is from the Gibson 'Dirty Fingers' pickup that he has used for most of his career, though I believe he switched a few years ago to a Gibson PAF reissue.

Why do I like it? The tone is powerful, cutting and articulate like you might expect from a ceramic pickup but it also has a fatness, warmth and richness to it that is more commonly associated with Alnico pups. Listening to Sykes' tone, it always sounds surprisingly organic to me for a ceramic pickup. These are all the qualities I want.

Now it makes sense that the 'Cold Sweat' is the equivilant Bare Knuckle pickup and in a mahogany guitar I can certainly testify that it does have many similar characteristics as I've owned one but the trouble is that my current guitar is very different as it's a Jackson SL3 so it's maple neck-thru with alder wings and OFR. If it helps, from what I've found out online, the original had a DC resistance of 16.6, used three ceramic magnets and double pole pieces. I haven't been able to find out for sure the gauge of wire yet but I think it's 44awg. So, which Bare Knuckle pickup will help to give me the John Sykes 'Dirty Fingers' tone in an SL3 or would I need to modify a stock BKP in some way to achieve the sound I want?

Simples!

[ericsabbath]

the cold sweat is no near as high output and grindy as a dirty fingers or even a 500t

but what you're really missing is a big fat les paul
the cold sweat sounds huge in my '73 les paul custom, although is not a fat or grindy pickup

I guess the best bet from BKP would be the c-bomb in a les paul or the c-pig if you're using a skinny non-mahogany guitar

the painkiller has the closest specs, but it's not as fat and grainy (and muddy) as a dirty fingers
maybe an overwound version of it...

[Doadman]

To be honest, I half expected to get a Nailbomb suggested, either ceramic or Alnico, but I thought that might be OK for my guitar. I never even considered a C-Pig as it's so powerful and I never associate it with any kind of versatility, which is something I: do associate with Sykes. Nevertheless, I'll try listening to some clips.

[Transcend]

To be honest, I half expected to get a Nailbomb suggested, either ceramic or Alnico, but I thought that might be OK for my guitar. I never even considered a C-Pig as it's so powerful and I never associate it with any kind of versatility, which is something I: do associate with Sykes. Nevertheless, I'll try listening to some clips.

i think you should send TIM a message he will be able to give the best guidance for you

[ericsabbath]

I'm just doing R&D on a new set of 'Cold Sweat' humbuckers- a mid powered  distortion humbucker in the vein of the early Dirty Fingers.What I've done is try to get rid of the mid spikes but retain the power.
I'm gigging them at the moment and I'm really pleased with them.
More soon! PDT_045

There are several things that usually get done to Dirty Fingers to make them sound better. One is remove the two flanking magnets which cleans the tone up, and the second is to remove the copper screening tape from around the coils which plays hell with the inductance. The answer is Cold Sweat!

OK, thought I'd chime in here..........SD Custom and the Cold Sweat are very different pickups-the CS has asymmetrical coils of plain enamel wire, the SDC is symmetrically wound with polysol.Secondly the ceramic magnet we use is way bigger so there's much more power on tap.A/B them side to side and tonally they're poles apart.
Dirty Fingers, well it depends if it's the original or reissue model but again it's polysol wound, symmetrical coils and 3 ceramic magnets, one in the centre and 2 flankers-totally different again to the Cold Sweat.
Incidently a SD custom shop pickup is marginally more than a regular BKP but one things for sure you'll have to wait a helluva lot longer for it and even then it won't be handwound.

Yes, like I said, he used the Dirty Fingers for most of his career and only recently changed to the PAF style...............not sure when though, his site isn't specific about the period. John does like to use enormous amounts of gain though and even a PAF, something like a Mule, will really wail 8)

Having used the Aftermath now in a 6 string I'd say it is similar ballpark to the dirty fingers but way tighter and with maybe a more controlled treble e a much tighter bass response - it loses the flabbiness that the gibson DF could have

think if I could find a hybrid between the Aftermath and Cold Sweat I would be a very happy boy

the CS doesn't have particularly strong mids IMO. they don't sound that like the DFs after all I reckon, though there is a cerain je ne ce quoi. they sound like the sykes DF tone, but they clearly aren't DF clones.

like zakk and priest use the same EMG, but they have very different BKPs named after them

i like the original 80s dirty fingers, i haven't tried the reissues. they're cool pickups, and clean up really well - though not as precise/clear as BKPs with gain. i think the originals have a certain cool 'fukked up' sound with high gain, which is almost a bit punky. if you like this characteristic, perhaps the nailbombs would be a good choice from what i hear in the clips.

cold sweats are alot more organic sounding that most ceramic pickups, the dirty fingers are similar like that... something like the painkiller revels in 'synthetic' (?!) sounding fatness.

My 80s Dirty Fingers, although extremely cool pickups, are pretty compressed and don't really do blues. I must say this is not the case for the Cold Sweat, which can do the breakup thing very well.

These Cold Sweats laugh sarcastically at the 500T/496R set that was in there from the top of a very high building. Not that that set is bad, but the Cold Sweats really fit this guitar exceptionally well. The tone is in another league now.

As for Painkiller vs Cold Sweat, I think they are pretty similar. Though as one could guess the Painkiller is alot more modern sounding with extra mids. Not that the Cold Sweats are short on mids - oh no!

If we talk Priest albums - obviously the Painkiller sounds like the 'Painkiller' album. I think in a mahogany V, the Cold Sweat would be similar to 'Screaming For Vengence', the sycamore of my V probably moves the tone with extra mids firmly in the 'Defenders of the Faith' period.

Please get cold sweats, so you can compare them to DF for me please :D
Still unresolved issue of my bridge P'up and what to do with it

They have an overall similar EQ and vibe, but just very generally - actually they are quite different pickups and I don't think you'd mistake them.

The Dirty Fingers have a certain 'messed up-ness' to them, which I think can be cool in some situations. I also think the Dirty Fingers have alot more mid range grind. Cold Sweat has a very mild mid range.

Cold Sweat has a rather extended treble response, which I think is pretty nice. I'd say both pups have a similar bass response.

Dirty Fingers is quite compressed - it sounds good dirty and clean, but 'breaking up' tones are not very good in my opinion. Cold Sweat is alot more versatile in this regard, handles all gain levels... Maybe the DF bridge sounds a bit nicer clean than the CS though, but very hard to say.

In terms of output I find them both to be similar levels.

DFs are the best commercial pickups I tried, i have a set of early 80s ones. they didn't come potted are were very microphonic before I potted them. CSs are 'better' than the DFs in quite a few ways, but they are not really that close.

500T is closer to DF than CS.

Soon I will have a Painkiller bridge in a guitar... I'm interested to hear the difference on my rig. Previously I just heard them through Feline's rig.

[gwEm]

lots of quote from me there :)

the cold sweats sound, for me, like the mesa boogie sykes tone on blue murder tracks ("we all fall down" etc).

if i stick a set of dirty fingers in a V and whack it through a jcm800, i can expect a nasty meltdowny tone which is very addictive, and that i'll always like.. having said that, subtlety isn't the strong point (though bizarrely they do roll-down cleans well). dirty fingers use polysol coating of some kind, and the cold sweat uses enamel coated wire.

i read your initial post - take the cold sweat, it sounds like just what you want.

these days i hear more differences between the cold sweat and painkiller than i do between a 500t and a dirty fingers. the DF and the 500t aren't so far apart actually.

[gwEm]

the cold sweat is no near as high output and grindy as a dirty fingers or even a 500t

but what you're really missing is a big fat les paul
the cold sweat sounds huge in my '73 les paul custom, although is not a fat or grindy pickup

I guess the best bet from BKP would be the c-bomb in a les paul or the c-pig if you're using a skinny non-mahogany guitar

the painkiller has the closest specs, but it's not as fat and grainy (and muddy) as a dirty fingers
maybe an overwound version of it...

great post, fully agree. the dirty fingers are what they are, which isn't always good, but it can be just the ticket. as i said earlier, if you want an organic sounding ceramic pickup, the CS will deliver.

[gwEm]

more anecdotes, just because :) i remember when i first plugged a V with dirty fingers into a JCM800, it felt like i was home. i love that punk metal style, and there it was! you can do alot of eq tweaks with the double screw poles. they are great pickups, but they can be utter muddy bollocks too!

[Doadman]

Well, it seems I was right that the Cold Sweat is the nearest obvious candidate to a Dirty Fingers and it's certainly the sound I first thought of when I had a set in a mahogany guitar. I loved it because it was exactly what I wanted: ceramic tightness with the rich, organic tone of an Alnico and pretty versatile to boot. Perfect. I remember the first time I heard the song 'Cold Sweat' and even though I didn't play guitar at that stage, I immediately knew it was a sound I loved. It was everything I liked about Gibson tone but more so. It was aggression that no other Gibson seemed to produce yet still had a quality to it that made me think of PAF tone. In that respect I find John Sykes' move to a PAF pickup to be totally understandable, though I still prefer his Dirty Fingers tone.

However, I'd be very surprised if a bright pickup like a Cold Sweat would produce the same response in a guitar like an SL3; hence my question. A Cold Sweat in a mahogany guitar IS that Sykes, Dirty Fingers tone but as this guitar is so different, it seems reasonable to me that it will take a different pickup to achieve the same thing. I know I have a few threads on this but new pickups are a lot of money and I want to get it right. I did contact Tim but he said it would be easier to talk about it on the phone rather than email but due to work, I haven't been able to call yet. I'm hoping to catch him today but until I do get him I have to rely on the combined wisdom of the forum.

[FELINEGUITARS]

Well, it seems I was right that the Cold Sweat is the nearest obvious candidate to a Dirty Fingers and it's certainly the sound I first thought of when I had a set in a mahogany guitar. I loved it because it was exactly what I wanted: ceramic tightness with the rich, organic tone of an Alnico and pretty versatile to boot. Perfect. I remember the first time I heard the song 'Cold Sweat' and even though I didn't play guitar at that stage, I immediately knew it was a sound I loved. It was everything I liked about Gibson tone but more so. It was aggression that no other Gibson seemed to produce yet still had a quality to it that made me think of PAF tone. In that respect I find John Sykes' move to a PAF pickup to be totally understandable, though I still prefer his Dirty Fingers tone.

However, I'd be very surprised if a bright pickup like a Cold Sweat would produce the same response in a guitar like an SL3; hence my question. A Cold Sweat in a mahogany guitar IS that Sykes, Dirty Fingers tone but as this guitar is so different, it seems reasonable to me that it will take a different pickup to achieve the same thing. I know I have a few threads on this but new pickups are a lot of money and I want to get it right. I did contact Tim but he said it would be easier to talk about it on the phone rather than email but due to work, I haven't been able to call yet. I'm hoping to catch him today but until I do get him I have to rely on the combined wisdom of the forum.

I suspect that the Aftermath will add a lot of midrange that may be otherwise missing if you dont have a Les Paul
However does sound a lot tighter and less sloppy than a Dirty Fingers can and it's 43 gauge wire (same as Cold Sweat)

Cold Sweat is my favourite pickup in mahogany guitars, but I have been enjoying the AM  in it's place lately - been experimenting. The Aftermath is certainly not just for modern Tech metal players - it works well for 80s hard rock too (guess it may be down to someone like myself to throw down a clip at some point to prove it)

[gwEm]

The Aftermath is certainly not just for modern Tech metal players - it works well for 80s hard rock too (guess it may be down to someone like myself to throw down a clip at some point to prove it)

i've suddenly become interested in the Aftermath :) I thought it would be a one-trick br00talz pony.

[Pale Rider]

I like this kind of tone challenges. Tough isn't it?

Anyway tone is a multi-dimentional thing involving guitar type, woods, construction, pickups, amp etc so I think you can't get exactly what you got with your LP. It's different woods, different construction (set neck vs neck thru), different response due to the woods AND construction, different scale and different feel. I guess you can construct a similar EQ but the voicing and response are difficult to duplicate. Or you can get close to the response but you'll loose on EQ and voicing, or even you could get close to the voicing you want but with a different feel and EQ. To get ALL three there with a different guitar it's what it makes it so hard.

I can't help you with BKPs as I haven't tried enough yet. I have a couple in my mind by other manufacturers that might suit the case but I wouldn't suggest them here because it's the BKP forum and also I consider them inferior to BKPs in any way.

[Doadman]

Well, I don't expect it to sound exactly the same and indeed, my previous guitar didn't either as it wasn't a Les Paul; it was a maple/walnut neck-thru with mahogany wings but it did at least get me into the right ballpark by giving me some of the characteristics. Obviously my current guitar is brighter so I need a pickup that is darker than the Cold Sweat to compensate but I agree it's a difficult balancing act when there are so many variables.

[Pale Rider]

Ah sorry! I thought you had a Les Paul before. Then that makes it easier I guess. ;)

Edit: As it was a neck-thru I think it shouldn't be that different from your SL3. What kind of bridge (your previous guitar)?

[Transcend]

Well, it seems I was right that the Cold Sweat is the nearest obvious candidate to a Dirty Fingers and it's certainly the sound I first thought of when I had a set in a mahogany guitar. I loved it because it was exactly what I wanted: ceramic tightness with the rich, organic tone of an Alnico and pretty versatile to boot. Perfect. I remember the first time I heard the song 'Cold Sweat' and even though I didn't play guitar at that stage, I immediately knew it was a sound I loved. It was everything I liked about Gibson tone but more so. It was aggression that no other Gibson seemed to produce yet still had a quality to it that made me think of PAF tone. In that respect I find John Sykes' move to a PAF pickup to be totally understandable, though I still prefer his Dirty Fingers tone.

However, I'd be very surprised if a bright pickup like a Cold Sweat would produce the same response in a guitar like an SL3; hence my question. A Cold Sweat in a mahogany guitar IS that Sykes, Dirty Fingers tone but as this guitar is so different, it seems reasonable to me that it will take a different pickup to achieve the same thing. I know I have a few threads on this but new pickups are a lot of money and I want to get it right. I did contact Tim but he said it would be easier to talk about it on the phone rather than email but due to work, I haven't been able to call yet. I'm hoping to catch him today but until I do get him I have to rely on the combined wisdom of the forum.

I suspect that the Aftermath will add a lot of midrange that may be otherwise missing if you dont have a Les Paul
However does sound a lot tighter and less sloppy than a Dirty Fingers can and it's 43 gauge wire (same as Cold Sweat)

Cold Sweat is my favourite pickup in mahogany guitars, but I have been enjoying the AM  in it's place lately - been experimenting. The Aftermath is certainly not just for modern Tech metal players - it works well for 80s hard rock too (guess it may be down to someone like myself to throw down a clip at some point to prove it)

i agree entirely on the aftermath not being just for modern players i find it to be absolute great for recreating 80s tones especially those mid 80s megadeth ones up to the current sound.