What has happened to Ben / Denim & Leather/Twilight Odyssey ?

[Philly Q]

Maybe banning discussions on religion and politics, as on other boards is the answer to this one.  That way we can avoid giving free expression to the dreaded 'psuedo' intellectuals that congregate here - instead we can get endless posts in the off topic areas about about Youtube funnies and stereo/car/bike/camera/DVD, etc collections.

I prefer the religio-political (is that a word? Or a pseudo-word?) discussions to the YouTube funnies threads, on the whole.

But we can all ignore whatever's not of interest.  I'm not in favour of discouraging any kind of discussion.

Blimey, hasn't this thread grown wings in the last few days?

[Transcend]

Ive decided to make this thread music related again!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-1Dbc1TH8c

[FredD]

Marco Sfogli ROCKS !!!!  8)

[MDV]

Dave, on (a), I think elliot was being sarcastic. + 1 and well put if so.

I've tried to avoid thinking, let alone posting about the anti-intellectual thread (intentional  :P) running through the objections to some of the discussion here. Sorry chaps, but 'Its too clever I dont like it' isnt a valid reason to curtail "free expression". Apparently one mans stimulating (hehe) discussion is anothers tedium. To some, tedium is "Youtube funnies and stereo/car/bike/camera/DVD, etc collections". Some people that accidentally walk in on a stimulating discussion (hehe), mistake it for a confrontational argument. If to the participants a discussion is not antagonistic, but you see it that way, that really says more about you than about the discussion.

Bob,

"but I do fear that in its present state the board will not continue to be the polite and welcoming place it once was and still is"

Pure speculation.

"I figure the idea of a politics, religion, science and debate board is not to encourage or discourage any particular kind of discourse, but to allow people who want to debate to do it away from the others"

Do it away from others? Like debate is something you should keep hidden behind closed doors? Shall we have a "Dont ask dont tell" policy if youre a "Debater"? :lol: No, you are trying to encourage particular discourse and discourage others, quite blatently: debate is a kind of discourse.

I would like to go on on the anti-intellectual current here, but the full response would likely be disproportionate (as good a forum as this is, its just an internet forum), and I tried to keep my objections earlier to the most diplomatic I can think of. I'll leave it at this: I find it quite fundamentally offensive to try to curtail, inhibit or isolate any mode of discussion, however "pseudo intellectual" or tedious and banal, save when it becomes openly personally hostile. I would have thought this was just common sense.

[dave_mc]

(a) Dave, on (a), I think elliot was being sarcastic. + 1 and well put if so.

(b) I've tried to avoid thinking, let alone posting about the anti-intellectual thread (intentional  :P) running through the objections to some of the discussion here. Sorry chaps, but 'Its too clever I dont like it' isnt a valid reason to curtail "free expression". Apparently one mans stimulating (hehe) discussion is anothers tedium. To some, tedium is "Youtube funnies and stereo/car/bike/camera/DVD, etc collections". Some people that accidentally walk in on a stimulating discussion (hehe), mistake it for a confrontational argument. If to the participants a discussion is not antagonistic, but you see it that way, that really says more about you than about the discussion.

(c) Bob,

"but I do fear that in its present state the board will not continue to be the polite and welcoming place it once was and still is"

Pure speculation.

"I figure the idea of a politics, religion, science and debate board is not to encourage or discourage any particular kind of discourse, but to allow people who want to debate to do it away from the others"

Do it away from others? Like debate is something you should keep hidden behind closed doors? Shall we have a "Dont ask dont tell" policy if youre a "Debater"? :lol: No, you are trying to encourage particular discourse and discourage others, quite blatently: debate is a kind of discourse.

I would like to go on on the anti-intellectual current here, but the full response would likely be disproportionate (as good a forum as this is, its just an internet forum), and I tried to keep my objections earlier to the most diplomatic I can think of. I'll leave it at this: I find it quite fundamentally offensive to try to curtail or inhibit any mode of discussion, however "pseudo intellectual" or tedious and banal, save when it becomes openly personally hostile. I would have thought this was just common sense.

(a) ah maybe :oops: if so, :lol: and sorry :oops: If not, I stand by what I said :)

(b) good point, agreed :)

(c) lol at the "don't ask, don't tell" thing :lol:

and again, good points- agreed. :)

I would also say that, occasionally (and not even just here, or mainly here- this happens as much if not more often in real life) someone makes a point which is quite offensive, or controversial, or which is intended to bait a certain type of person- and then when someone responds (if only to call the person on what, to them, is false logic), the person who responds is labelled the troublemaker.

I don't think it's fair when that happens. if you make a point you should have evidence to back it up and be willing to defend it.

[plastercaster]

I said I'd do this in PMs but I lied.  :lol:

Pure speculation.

Well obviously, being an extremely complex nonlinear system. Surely no more speculative than saying "the forum will manage fine" though? (which I'm presuming to be your reading of it)

No, you are trying to encourage particular discourse and discourage others, quite blatently: debate is a kind of discourse.

hmmm... now this I really don't understand. Having separate Guitar and off-topic subforums doesn't discourage discussion of off topic or guitar subjects, it's just a filing system so that people can enjoy the forums more easily by finding threads they want to read. It seems obvious to me, reading this thread, that some people prefer off topic to be light hearted and others prefer it to be a place where one can have debates. Splitting off-topic according to those preferences isn't discriminatory; to me it's utilitarian. No one is censored. Maybe the idea of mods moving stuff around and interfering in our discussion is what's putting you off, which I could relate to more. I suppose it could be self moderating? If a cat video starts to generate long posts on climate change there's nothing to stop one of the participants opening a "global warming" thread in the debate board and writing "discussion moved" in the cat video thread.

[JDC]

I think when debates gets out of hand then emotional thinking takes over logical thinking.

[dave_mc]

er... aren't there already "off topic" and "off topic off topic" forums? :lol:

Not that anyone (including me) really seems to differentiate much between the two, but still, i mean they are there.

[Lezard]

I wouldn't mind having (Off topic)^Nth boards where N is the degree of Off topic-ness...

[MDV]

er... aren't there already "off topic" and "off topic off topic" forums? :lol:

Not that anyone (including me) really seems to differentiate much between the two, but still, i mean they are there.

Yes, and yes. That should show how little we care for distinctions between 'off topic' posts on here.

Debate isnt topics, bob, its a kind of discourse. All things are open for debate, including on topic posts, which have (rightly) involved long and sometimes technical discussions and have had sober, civil argumentative disgreement (and more rarely, havent, but we tend to iron ourselves out like adults, and I dont see that that should change). A 'politics and religion' board wouldnt remove debating from anything else (the cyclist thread for example would have still been rightly started in an OT board rather than a serious matters board), and nor should it. And besides, such topics are very rare here, its not like the front page of time out is dominated by it; theres one thread, and its the first I remember on it in months. I think the last one was for Popefest. I think its pointless, and is just trying to tailor discussion to certain tastes.

I dont want to see this forum end up like SS.org, UG or TGP where civility is maintained by authority because enough of the occupants are uptight or immature (or both). Its not needed, which is something we should be proud of.

Lezard: :lol:

[Philly Q]

I dont want to see this forum end up like SS.org, UG or TGP where civility is maintained by authority because enough of the occupants are uptight or immature (or both). Its not needed, which is something we should be proud of.

Amen (or equivalent secular term) to that.

[plastercaster]

Debate isnt topics, bob, its a kind of discourse.

Which is why I'm not suggesting splitting boards on the basis of topic; I'm suggesting splitting them on the basis of the type of discussion happening within. To that end, I probably should have referred to it as the "debate" board rather than "politics, religion, science and debate" board (although those are the things it would inevitably going to be full of).

Anyway, the idea doesn't seem that popular. Never mind. I think my impression of the state of the board has been swayed by returning from hiatus to find the cycling and Ed Roman threads and twilight odyssey has left in part due to "childish behaviour", which hopefully is just a bit of a blip.

Regards the cycling thread; in future can we all agree not to open threads with threats to murder each other? Hardly sets the scene for level headed and good natured discussion does it  :lol:

[FELINEGUITARS]

Hmmm .

I don't feel I ever had any issues with civil differences of opinion on the forum.

I never had any problems with blocks of text - never really felt TL-DR about any of them or if I did it was only because I maybe found the subject interesting and some punctuation and paragraph separation would make for easier reading.
If it was simply something that held no interest for me I could just ignore the subject.

I don't feel any need for a new separate section for heavyweight topics - especially as things have gotten heavyweight in subjects as everyday as cyclists, fare dodgers on trains, the death of a contentious or controversial person etc

Debate and discussion are good and healthy where they occur and all parties are able to consider each others viewpoints and also able to re-consider their own viewpoints as a result of the discussion.

I don't want a sycophantic neutered forum where it can all get a bit samey samey after a while.

This forum has actually always been very good at self policing, from all different angles : from members respecting others and knowing when to dial it down a touch , or as Dave Mc said knowing when not to post something for the sake of not having tempers flare, or sometimes members suggesting to others to let things go a bit, or occasionally to a bit of gentle moderation.

Usually the only time it gets ugly is if you get a newbie who is so overjoyed to be here that they let themselves down or get into arguments with others almost straight away, and eventually a few others tell them to shut up, sit down and chill a bit, if they want to stay and make friends - or leave if they don't want to play nice

What I object to is debate as a HOBBY - where one or more parties brings regular debate to the forum BECAUSE THEY LIKE TO DEBATE OR ARGUE rather than because they  have a differing viewpoint that they feel is very important to seeking the truth in the matter being discussed.

This is what gets very tiresome to me and I suspect to some of the others who have expressed  similar feelings.

Whilst there will always be times now and then where a hot topic will get debated (which as I said is healthy), it does become very noticeable if it's always the same person that brings the DEBATE and seems to be happy to bring out the BIG GUNS no mater what subject is on the table - just for the fun of debate.

It brings something too heavyweight to the forum that is a turn off for me - it's almost like a soap opera.

I would suggest  that if heavy debate is something in your blood that you need to do - seek out forums designed  for just that.
A 5 second peek on Google threw up :http://www.ukdebate.co.uk/forums/ as a typical debating forum
There may be much better ones too - if such things interest you.

However maybe debates over the properties of pickups and players using certain pickups would be more fun.

Here's one - if Hendrix had always played Gibson guitars with humbuckers would his legend & influence have been as strong as it was through his mainly playing strats

[Dmoney]

Is it ironic that I've used my ability to ignore threads to pretty much ignore this one debating debates and verbose posting?

[FELINEGUITARS]

Is it ironic that I've used my ability to ignore threads to pretty much ignore this one debating debates and verbose posting?

Ironic - possibly
Maybe you have more willpower or ability to compartmentalise and ignore stuff that doesn't interest you.
I wish I had that more at times.
There have been times where sat in a restaurant with a couple at the next table having a heated and moody argument has caused me to feel uncomfortable & agitated, whilst my girlfriend or other friends can just ignore it or block it out, and don't see that it is a problem.