'Boutique gear' general grumpy rant.

[Twinfan]

It's a bit different for amps though, as if you get high tolerance caps/resistors/transformers you can pretty much build the exact same amp every time.  Yes, valves may differ a touch but there's very little in it.  For example, I have two unchanged from new 65 Amps Empire heads.  I can't tell them apart when playing them on the same settings.

Each piece of wood is different though, so replicating a guitar EXACTLY is almost impossible to do.  I owned two identical McCarty rosewood neck models (except for fretboard inlays) at the same time in the past and they sounded very different.

I guess I'm trying to say that building that 'special one' is easier and more consistently reproduced for an amp when compared to a guitar.

[Twinfan]

Dmoney - I haven't listened to the clips as I think it's pointless.  Sound isn't the whole story, as with guitars it's a bout feel and whether you're inspired by it.

Playing the two back-to-back in a room I'm guessing I may be able to spot a difference, but whether I can tell you which is which is another matter.  You should see the Guitarist magazine blind test last month for a similar exercise.

[Dmoney]

It's a bit different for amps though, as if you get high tolerance caps/resistors/transformers you can pretty much build the exact same amp every time.  Yes, valves may differ a touch but there's very little in it.  For example, I have two unchanged from new 65 Amps Empire heads.  I can't tell them apart when playing them on the same settings.

Each piece of wood is different though, so replicating a guitar EXACTLY is almost impossible to do.  I owned two identical McCarty rosewood neck models (except for fretboard inlays) at the same time in the past and they sounded very different.

I guess I'm trying to say that building that 'special one' is easier and more consistently reproduced for an amp when compared to a guitar.

I can see what you're saying and that's kind of reflected in the fact that you don't see many amplifiers over £4k (unless you're talking about non production amps that are collectable) and when it comes to high tolerance resistors etc, that doesn't necessarily matter because the more complex an amp and the more components you put in it, even with a 5% tolerance in the individual parts the differences even out through the amp. Also high tolerance parts tend to be what you might call 'non vintage' construction or materials. People who might want a really vintage sounding amp could want carbon comp or something else, and then you might get into a process of hand selecting parts by testing each componant for its value. You often get people claiming to use Carbon Comp in the 'signal path' and metal film elsewhere to reduce noise. I'm not sure how much difference that makes.

As I've said before, I know about the guitarist magazine test because I've built two amps for one guy that was part of the test, and I have parts at home to build two more for him.

As for being inspired, I use my clone 98% of the time when playing at home. I can tell the difference between the real amp and otherwise, although they have different types of power valves in now so it's a bit easier. However you just made the point that it's easier to build amps to the same spec and get the same results every time! So do you think If I built two identical amps (according to your criteria of matching values in the circuite etc) one would inpsire you more than the other regardless of the inherent similarity in sound? You seem to be contradicting yourself somewhat. If you want to get the detail, my clone has the same type of pots and resistors (same series from the same manufacturer) and they both have polyester orange drop caps rather than Polypropelene. Not all orange drops are equal but I chose a type based on some research around the web to be close as I could get that wasn't hunting NOS caps. I went through each coupling cap by hand and marked the leg with the outer foil and lined that up with the lowest impedance path to ground to help with noise. The filter caps in my clone are higher spec. Both amps use Panasonic filter caps. The main difference is the transformers. The OT is still a large wide bandwidth 'high def' transformer which is probably a little bigger than the real SLO's OT and it's by no means junk... its top notch, and the PT is specified to compliment it. So yes, there is a difference but it's DAMN close for the sake of an extra £3k and I have the two side by side to prove that and I'm not the only one who believes it.

[Twinfan]

However you just made the point that it's easier to build amps to the same spec and get the same results every time! So do you think If I built two identical amps (according to your criteria of matching values in the circuite etc) one would inpsire you more than the other regardless of the inherent similarity in sound? You seem to be contradicting yourself somewhat.

That's not what I was trying to say, sorry!  I'm sure your clone sounds very close to an SLO, and I reckon you could build another one just as good quite easily.  The price difference between yours and the real thing can be explained by US labour costs & healthcare, research and development, taxes, RoSH and CEE testing, marketing, brand image, price positioning for the market etc.  Soldano are a company looking to making a profit, you're a one-off copyist.

The "inspiring" part comes from the design, so get that right and you can churn them out all day long.

Doing the same thing with a guitar, I'm suggesting it's pretty damn impossible.  Can you clone Pearly Gates or SRV's #1?  Can you do it 20 times?  Do you have access to 500/1000 planks of the correct spec maple/mahogany to find the right pieces?

[Dmoney]

I'm not suggesting you can. I'm just talking about amplifiers. I agree about the labour costs and price positioning (Soldano amps don't meet RoHS though I don't think since they use optocouplers for switching) and they are small company still and if pricing their amps accordingly means they can pay their staff well then thats great. I'm not trying to make a profit when I build stuff for myself and I'm in a fortunate position in that I have the knowledge and the skill to be able to build an amp as close to an SLO for a fraction of the price although its still a lot of money if you don't want to cut any corners. It's the same 'design' between the too obviously, so for me because I love that circuit, both amps are as inspiring as each other.

Not just from a playing point of view either. From a design viewpoint the SLO is awesome. Leaving the actual circuit for a minute, the choice of parts is awesome and the chassis layout is great (where the iron is placed and how it's placed, where the valve sockets are placed in relation to the controls and input jacks and how that effects the wiring layout etc). The standby and power switching could be better, but really, everything most people think is irrelevant in an amp is addressed in the SLO. I really think it's the first amp designed to such a level and that's partly the reason why I own a real one. I can't spare the money again for a second one (although I would like one with all the options) but I'm happy to make myself something to tour with and use as a backup knowing how similar I can build one. In turn that just means I'm not really taken in by the argument that it isn't even possible to get close to building an SLO unless you're mike soldano or bill sundt. 

It doesn't have as many bells or whistles as an XTC or Diezel but I like that. I like a solid single channel amp that does what it does and does it really well. I've not played an XTC, I'm sure they're good though. I've played a Diezel Hagan and a VH4 and those are great amps, but for me I prefered the SLO tone over what those amps offered in the similar high gain vein. If I ever needed a 3 or 4 channel amp I've no idea what I'd do. Probably end up building my own. ha!

[FELINEGUITARS]

A cynic might say that a USA PRS is pretty dear to be considered a "normal" mass produced instrument :lol: I mean for that kind of cash you can get a luthier-built guitar, which does have the kind of wood selection you're talking about. It won't have the PRS signature on the headstock and whether you like it as much is a whole other question, but yeah.

Think you have to factor resale into it too. I bet I couldn't shift my custom even if I wanted to 'cause it's so unique to me but a CU24 will keep alot of the value?

Not if you put the slightest mark on it it's not . PRS collectors seem to be obsessive about guitars being completely mint.
One small scratch or dent and it's basically worthless.

I owned a Custom 22 once and as a result of that attitude I think I only took it out of it's case 4 times which is complete madness.
Sold it on to have something that you can play without that worry instead.

[Dmoney]

Doing the same thing with a guitar, I'm suggesting it's pretty damn impossible.  Can you clone Pearly Gates or SRV's #1?  Can you do it 20 times?  Do you have access to 500/1000 planks of the correct spec maple/mahogany to find the right pieces?

I just had a thought about this too.
Why would you want to clone those or even claim to have cloned them? Without knowing the history of either and just picking one up surely you might think either are old junk? That has to be a possibility right? What makes some of these guitars extraordinary has to be extraordinary players that held them, other than that they might just be average guitars to anyone else. I can't believe that once upon a time someone was making a guitar and the planets aligned and all the woods happened to meld perfectly and years later on the anniversary of that guitars' birth it fell (with its perfect balance of woody goodness) into the virtuosic hands of Stevie Ray Vaughan or similar? That seems a little coincidental to me. Would it be the number one in anyone elses collection if it hadn't passed via SRV? I'm not so sure. So all those expensive Gibson models like the AFD etc... I really can't see why they would be better guitars to begin with, perhaps a lot of those reissues are better than the guitars them emulate. That wouldn't surprise me. It's just selling expensive guitars to Slash fans etc. Your PRS obviously doesn't fall into that class of guitar.

I think I've actually heard a story about an SRV strat (I'm not sure which) that was briefly tracked down. It had been painted over (not a pro refin, badly) and was being treated like a squire strat I think. The trail went dead a long time ago after the owner at the time refused to part with it (my memory of the story is hazy). So somewhere out there, someone has an SRV strat that probably looks like a pile of garbage. 

[FELINEGUITARS]

Doing the same thing with a guitar, I'm suggesting it's pretty damn impossible.  Can you clone Pearly Gates or SRV's #1?  Can you do it 20 times?  Do you have access to 500/1000 planks of the correct spec maple/mahogany to find the right pieces?

I just had a thought about this too.
Why would you want to clone those or even claim to have cloned them? Without knowing the history of either and just picking one up surely you might think either are old junk? That has to be a possibility right? What makes some of these guitars extraordinary has to be extraordinary players that held them, other than that they might just be average guitars to anyone else. I can't believe that once upon a time someone was making a guitar and the planets aligned and all the woods happened to meld perfectly and years later on the anniversary of that guitars' birth it fell (with its perfect balance of woody goodness) into the virtuosic hands of Stevie Ray Vaughan or similar? That seems a little coincidental to me. Would it be the number one in anyone elses collection if it hadn't passed via SRV? I'm not so sure. So all those expensive Gibson models like the AFD etc... I really can't see why they would be better guitars to begin with, perhaps a lot of those reissues are better than the guitars them emulate. That wouldn't surprise me. It's just selling expensive guitars to Slash fans etc. Your PRS obviously doesn't fall into that class of guitar.

I think I've actually heard a story about an SRV strat (I'm not sure which) that was briefly tracked down. It had been painted over (not a pro refin, badly) and was being treated like a squire strat I think. The trail went dead a long time ago after the owner at the time refused to part with it (my memory of the story is hazy). So somewhere out there, someone has an SRV strat that probably looks like a pile of garbage.

I have one of the Gibson Slash AFDs here at the moment
It's a nice enough guitar but it's not all that
I feel that one of our custom builds completely wipes the floor with it.

Trouble is that a boutique make won't have the resale value of a well regarded major brand ...until the boutique brand gets recognition/ kudos like happened with Dumble or Trainwreck amps.

[Twinfan]

Dmoney - I used famous guitars as an example.  Cloning any guitar would be tricky, although if you're building two side-by-side you have a better chance of them being indistinguishable from each other if you're using blanks from the same part of the trees etc.  Unlikely in a big factory, very possible if you're a small luthier or a Custom Shop.

I owned a Custom 22 once and as a result of that attitude I think I only took it out of it's case 4 times which is complete madness.
Sold it on to have something that you can play without that worry instead.

Some of us do actually play the snot out of our PRS's  ;)

[Dmoney]

Oooof.

those are cool amps and made crazy expensive by the lack of anyone making them. Ken Fischer passing away and Howard Dumble building guns rather than amps these days. A lot of them were tweaked to suit the individual making the purchase. There is a LOT of snake oil and wild conjecture around those amps. There are a few companies making clones of those but they are expensive. Though not the $20k - $40k the real deal might set you back! How close they get I've no idea, but I've even less idea about how close each Dumble amp was to another Dumble or each Trainwreck was to the next. I'd love to have a go on a real Trainwreck. A know a chap whos Dad owns one, but he lives in the US.

[Dmoney]

Dmoney - I used famous guitars as an example.  Cloning any guitar would be tricky, although if you're building two side-by-side you have a better chance of them being indistinguishable from each other if you're using blanks from the same part of the trees etc.  Unlikely in a big factory, very possible if you're a small luthier or a Custom Shop.

I know what you were getting at but I'd never really thought about it much before. I guess the assumption is that sometimes these legendary guitars are all going to play awesomely and so on... I bet a lot of them are pretty avaerage. Agreed about cloning any guitar too. As for making two side by side I also agree that it probably gives you the best chance of similar sounding guitars but (and maybe a luthier can answer) how much can wood vary over a plank? Would you be able to get a body blank from one section, and then the area right next to the last blank have a different grain or knots? I feel like that's a good argument but having no idea myself about the uniformity of timber I think its an interesting question.

[Philly Q]

Not if you put the slightest mark on it it's not . PRS collectors seem to be obsessive about guitars being completely mint.
One small scratch or dent and it's basically worthless.

I owned a Custom 22 once and as a result of that attitude I think I only took it out of it's case 4 times which is complete madness.
Sold it on to have something that you can play without that worry instead.

I felt a bit like that when I had a Singlecut Trem with the Artist Package (gold hardware, "better than 10" maple top etc) - not that I'm someone who plays every day or beats guitars up anyway, but it just didn't feel like it was "meant" to be played (but who knows, the new owner in Poland may be gigging the hell out of it, of course!)

Whereas my Standard Satin 22 has a load of dings and an "ugly-beautiful" sunk into the grain finish.... and I'm very fond of it.  It's not the "best" guitar, or the best PRS guitar, I've owned, in fact I'd say it's pretty bog-standard really, but I feel very comfortable with it.

It's true that PRS guitars don't seem to be holding their value very well at the moment, but I suspect in 20 or 30 years they will have vintafe values like Fender or Gibson.

[Twinfan]

I think the PRS no-damage thing comes from collectors buying them more than players.  More guys are playing them these days, especially in the US modern rock/metal scene by the look of the recent Download festival, but in the general public it's occasional players/collectors who seem to like them.

My main two gigging guitars are 'well used' and probably worth knack all!  :lol:

[Brow]

Not if you put the slightest mark on it it's not . PRS collectors seem to be obsessive about guitars being completely mint.
One small scratch or dent and it's basically worthless.

I owned a Custom 22 once and as a result of that attitude I think I only took it out of it's case 4 times which is complete madness.
Sold it on to have something that you can play without that worry instead.

And that's how I got my 97' CU22 for just over 600quid about 3 or 4 years ago  :lol:

Luckilly I'm 1 of those people that buys guitars to play them, so resale value isn't too much of a concern. Plus none of my guitars are so expensive where it's much of an issue anyway.

[Lew]

Which do you think is which?

F is the real SLO ;-p