New guitar, Caparison Dellinger

[MDV]

How likely is it that a guitar built in 06 or before took more than 18 months to make it to a shop for sale? Thats a very slow turnover and I'd have to question how they stay in business. Advertising and endorsments, I suppose.

Just to dive in on one point, how likely is that? VERY.

I've worked in 5 guitar shops. One of which was the highest turn over instument shop in the UK (I believe) another is probably top ten, every shop I've worked in has had loads of guitars in them that stay on the wall for months and months and in many cases years, especially expensive instruments.

Though, incidentally, I played a few Caparisons in GuitarGuitar Glasgow a year or so ago and thought they were garbage, but hey... :lol:

Well thanks for the correction. Always glad to learn new shite (how long it would take to actually sell didnt really occur to me  :oops: )

And we've got another assesment of some caparisons being garbage - but they were probably pre 06  :lol:  

Actually a mate of mine really wanted one, badly, then he played it, made exactly the same assesment of whatever one he played as us - and his LTDs, that he loves, are mediocre at best, so by transit of property....you see what I mean.

I eagerly (well, not that eagerly, but anyway) await playing as many post-06 ones as I can  :lol:

[Lew]

MDV, you couldn't be more wrong in your assesment of me or my motivations if you tried.

I have no interest in having an argument with you (or anyone for that matter)and it's getting harder and harder to reply to you without dropping to your level.

Wipe the sand out of your vagina and P.M me if you want to continue this nonsenese.

[MDV]

MDV, you couldn't be more wrong in your assesment of me or my motivations if you tried.

I have no interest in having an argument with you (or anyone for that matter)and it's getting harder and harder to reply to you without dropping to your level.

Wipe the sand out of your vagina and P.M me if you want to continue this nonsenese.

Congratulations on being the first person to bring personally affronting statments into the thread.

I've spoken to the best of my knowledge, and with consideration for your experience and point of view. Shame you couldnt manage as much  :oops:

See you around the boards.

[dave_mc]

sorry again for the long post...

Here's where we disagree. I've played a fair share of custom built guitars, and they have all been pretty damn good, and I have played plenty of production guitars, some have been bad, some have been good, and some have been superb. The superb ones for me easily competed with the custom built guitars I've played.

And for less money? Again debatable. I've played 80s Charvels, and a couple of Ibanez/ESP axes which totally outplayed anything I've ever touched since.

None of these are particularly expensive axes, and none of them are much higher than the cheapest customs you'd find.

In my eyes, there is no argument whether to go for a Custom or a Production guitar, its totally your choice.

Only if you do go for a Production guitar, make sure you get a good one.

can't really argue with that. I'd say that bringing up second-hand guitars (80s charvels) for price reasons is cheating, of course. :) I wouldn't exactly call ESPs cheap either, new they're normally over £1000, aren't they?

(a) On custom vs production, I don't own any custom guitars so I'm not going to get into the argument over which is "better" (but surely it's impossible to generalise anyway, custom builders can't all be equally skilled).  I agree with Roo (I'll say that again, I agree with Roo  :lol: ) that the best reason for going custom is if you want something with a set of specs that's not available in any production instrument.

price IS the main thing, though. that's the point. People say "such and such a guitar is great" and what's implied is "for the cash".

...we aren't saying that a custom is as good as a well-built production line guitar. we're saying it's miles better. for less money.

(b) The value-for-money aspect is relative, though, surely.  Suppose your dream guitar, with the exact specs you want (whatever they may be, it doesn't matter) is going to cost you £2,000 as a custom build.

That will certainly be significantly cheaper than a similarly-spec'd Suhr, Tom Anderson, Tyler or Nik Huber, as you said.  On the other hand, it could be as much as, or more than, a similarly-spec'd PRS or Gibson - which makes the choice less simple (I know someone will come in now and say there are no good Gibsons or PRSs, but... whatever  :roll: ).  If you find a production guitar that ticks all your boxes, why not go for it?

(a) agreed.

(b) also agreed. my argument is that a custom guitar costing around the price of the "lower" USA-made PRSs will likely be as nice as a nik huber costing twice as much (assuming, as you said earlier, that you picked a decent builder). Of course, if you'd prefer a PRS to the huber, it doesn't make much sense to go for the huber, as you've rightly said... :)

my big problem, to be honest, is the prices we have to pay for a lot of stuff over here... :(

Threadnomancy is a dark art and should not be practiced!

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

MDV, you couldn't be more wrong in your assesment of me or my motivations if you tried.

I have no interest in having an argument with you (or anyone for that matter)and it's getting harder and harder to reply to you without dropping to your level.

Wipe the sand out of your vagina and P.M me if you want to continue this nonsenese.

I haven't played a Legra but fair play they look like shitee  :lol:

you slagged off our legras long before we said anything derogatory about caparisons... (and i don't believe i have said anything derogatory about caparisons, other than their being too dear, which incidentally I believe about pretty much everything else for sale in the UK... :lol: )

[Johnny Mac]

A custom guitar is a no brainer for me. Some of the brand names that have been mentioned here Tyler, PRS, Nik Huber ect are just that, names and for some reason people get sucked into this brand thing like some do with posh clobber like Jasper Conran or whatever.
Pound for pound what I'm paying for my Feline custom is mega value for a build quality that is fantastic. Our very own jt compared Felines fret jobs as good as Tom Andersons. Without the price.
This Caparison thing is just a fashion thing as far as i can see.
I've played loads of fancy guitars in shops and at the shows and after playing one of Felines lions, I couldn't give a monkeys about off the shelf big name guitars. You would still have to pimp them anyway!
 :idea:

[Lew]

you slagged off our legras long before we said anything derogatory about caparisons... (and i don't believe i have said anything derogatory about caparisons, other than their being too dear, which incidentally I believe about pretty much everything else for sale in the UK... :lol: )

I haven't tried a Legra, I was only talking the body shapes on the front page, but yea fair point, it was a daft comment.
Caparison isn't the only brand I own or enjoy fwiw ;) It makes up a small amount of my playing time, most of it is spent with a spanish acoustic at the moment ;p

[Will]

I would assume the resale value of a custom guitar would not be as good as the original price, for example, Ailean's Tabby...
A few customs would be nice as you have it playing exactly as you want, and a few production guitars would be good, as they will have different elements about them that you have to adjust to, making you a better player?

[WezV]

I would assume the resale value of a custom guitar would not be as good as the original price, for example, Ailean's Tabby...

a very valid point!!!

[Philly Q]

A custom guitar is a no brainer for me. Some of the brand names that have been mentioned here Tyler, PRS, Nik Huber ect are just that, names and for some reason people get sucked into this brand thing like some do with posh clobber like Jasper Conran or whatever.

No offence Johnny, but isn't that verging on reverse snobbery?  Paul Reed Smith, James Tyler and Nik Huber aren't some kind of corporate whores, they are custom builders who, one way or another, hit the (relative) big time.  

PRS is the biggest of those companies, but Paul Smith isn't swanning around on a yacht, he's doing nitpicky little things like putting brass posts on his tuners because they sound better than steel ones.  And at "Experience PRS" he's acting as a bloody roadie!

Huber can charge more for his guitars than the custom builders we know because he's a "bigger" name, but I don't for a second think a three-grand Huber would be any worse than a Feline or Legra for half the price (and that's NOT meant as a put-down to Jonathan, Bob, Wez or anyone else).  It's just market forces.

In slightly different circumstances, Jonathan might have half a dozen employees and be selling Felines for £3,000 - and we'd be going to Nik Huber for £1,800 custom builds.  They're all in the same business, just at different points on the scale.

[noodleplugerine]

A custom guitar is a no brainer for me. Some of the brand names that have been mentioned here Tyler, PRS, Nik Huber ect are just that, names and for some reason people get sucked into this brand thing like some do with posh clobber like Jasper Conran or whatever.

No offence Johnny, but isn't that verging on reverse snobbery?  Paul Reed Smith, James Tyler and Nik Huber aren't some kind of corporate whores, they are custom builders who, one way or another, hit the (relative) big time.  

PRS is the biggest of those companies, but Paul Smith isn't swanning around on a yacht, he's doing nitpicky little things like putting brass posts on his tuners because they sound better than steel ones.  And at "Experience PRS" he's acting as a bloody roadie!

Huber can charge more for his guitars than the custom builders we know because he's a "bigger" name, but I don't for a second think a three-grand Huber would be any worse than a Feline or Legra for half the price (and that's NOT meant as a put-down to Jonathan, Bob, Wez or anyone else).  It's just market forces.

In slightly different circumstances, Jonathan might have half a dozen employees and be selling Felines for £3,000 - and we'd be going to Nik Huber for £1,800 custom builds.  They're all in the same business, just at different points on the scale.

+1

[nfe]

A custom guitar is a no brainer for me. Some of the brand names that have been mentioned here Tyler, PRS, Nik Huber ect are just that, names and for some reason people get sucked into this brand thing like some do with posh clobber like Jasper Conran or whatever.

No offence Johnny, but isn't that verging on reverse snobbery?  Paul Reed Smith, James Tyler and Nik Huber aren't some kind of corporate whores, they are custom builders who, one way or another, hit the (relative) big time.  

My only gripe with this statement - and I don't know enough about the ins and outs of Huber or Tyler to comment on them specifically - is that the likes of PRS and Tom Anderson are NOT custom builders, they were once upon a time, but they are no longer hand built custom instruments at all, they are built by machines with little hands on building, none at all until the finishing stages with PRS, but they charge as if they are.

[noodleplugerine]

A custom guitar is a no brainer for me. Some of the brand names that have been mentioned here Tyler, PRS, Nik Huber ect are just that, names and for some reason people get sucked into this brand thing like some do with posh clobber like Jasper Conran or whatever.

No offence Johnny, but isn't that verging on reverse snobbery?  Paul Reed Smith, James Tyler and Nik Huber aren't some kind of corporate whores, they are custom builders who, one way or another, hit the (relative) big time.  

My only gripe with this statement - and I don't know enough about the ins and outs of Huber or Tyler to comment on them specifically - is that the likes of PRS and Tom Anderson are NOT custom builders, they were once upon a time, but they are no longer hand built custom instruments at all, they are built by machines with little hands on building, none at all until the finishing stages with PRS, but they charge as if they are.

The Private Stock guitars certainly are custom, and are built by Paul and his team if memory serves.

[Philly Q]

My only gripe with this statement - and I don't know enough about the ins and outs of Huber or Tyler to comment on them specifically - is that the likes of PRS and Tom Anderson are NOT custom builders, they were once upon a time, but they are no longer hand built custom instruments at all, they are built by machines with little hands on building, none at all until the finishing stages with PRS, but they charge as if they are.

OK, as you say, PRS aren't primarily custom builders - it's certainly not the core of their business.  It's not economical to run a bigger company and cater to the needs of every individual customer.  Whereas for a small builder each guitar's individual so it's as easy to build them all different as to build them all the same.

But I'd still contend that using CNC routers etc doesn't lead to a worse guitar - it gives precision and speed, but the final touches, done by humans, are still crucial.  As for what they charge, it's a lot of money, but we pay a big premium on imported guitars in the UK.  At US prices, PRS seem very reasonable compared with Gibson or Fender, their domestic competitors.  It's all relative, and as I said before it's all down to market forces - ultimately they charge what people will pay for them.

Nik Huber - he has five builders and they turn out 120 guitars a year, "all hand crafted" according to their website.  James Tyler - I don't know exactly how big his business is, but it was basically a small workshop; I read that he's had health problems and has scaled down production.  John Suhr - has about 20 employees, they use CNC and a lot of hi-tech equipment but each guitar is hand-assembled by one builder.

My point was, these people aren't "the enemy", they're not "flavour of the month" companies.  They're people who love what they do and care about their products and their customers.  So OK, maybe you can't go to PRS and ask for a purple-metalflake Warlock copy with 4 humbuckers and a built-in beer cooler - but that doesn't make them inferior to custom builders.

[nfe]

My only gripe with this statement - and I don't know enough about the ins and outs of Huber or Tyler to comment on them specifically - is that the likes of PRS and Tom Anderson are NOT custom builders, they were once upon a time, but they are no longer hand built custom instruments at all, they are built by machines with little hands on building, none at all until the finishing stages with PRS, but they charge as if they are.

OK, as you say, PRS aren't primarily custom builders - it's certainly not the core of their business.  It's not economical to run a bigger company and cater to the needs of every individual customer.  Whereas for a small builder each guitar's individual so it's as easy to build them all different as to build them all the same.

But I'd still contend that using CNC routers etc doesn't lead to a worse guitar - it gives precision and speed, but the final touches, done by humans, are still crucial.  As for what they charge, it's a lot of money, but we pay a big premium on imported guitars in the UK.  At US prices, PRS seem very reasonable compared with Gibson or Fender, their domestic competitors.  It's all relative, and as I said before it's all down to market forces - ultimately they charge what people will pay for them.

Nik Huber - he has five builders and they turn out 120 guitars a year, "all hand crafted" according to their website.  James Tyler - I don't know exactly how big his business is, but it was basically a small workshop; I read that he's had health problems and has scaled down production.  John Suhr - has about 20 employees, they use CNC and a lot of hi-tech equipment but each guitar is hand-assembled by one builder.

My point was, these people aren't "the enemy", they're not "flavour of the month" companies.  They're people who love what they do and care about their products and their customers.  So OK, maybe you can't go to PRS and ask for a purple-metalflake Warlock copy with 4 humbuckers and a built-in beer cooler - but that doesn't make them inferior to custom builders.

I didn't mean to imply that they're worse. I did have a longer post about how I didn't consider hand building vs machines to be a better or worse route, but I felt I was waffling and edited it down. I have very expensive machine built guitars and I think they're smashing - but I was able to buy them at trade directly from their distributors at around £1000 off each time - boy, I'm gonna miss that now...

I just get irritated by machine builders pricing instruments as if they are labour intensive hand builds - and marketing material from PRS and Tom Anderson particularly are EXTREMELY misleading.

I've no doubt that when Paul Reed Smith builds a guitar himself, or one of his top employees does, they build a fantastic instrument, but that's not what you or I can buy, hell if we could it would be an astronomical price.

[noodleplugerine]

I've no doubt that when Paul Reed Smith builds a guitar himself, or one of his top employees does, they build a fantastic instrument, but that's not what you or I can buy, hell if we could it would be an astronomical price.

A PRS Private Stock starts at about £10k.

People laugh at that price, but frankly, I think its fair enough, the amount of inlay work etc you see on those works and the fact that they are the utmost peak of guitar quality makes it fair enough.

Top violin makers have their work in 5/6 figures, don't see why top guitars shouldn't cost 5 figures aswell.