TIM, Right or Wrong.

[StefanPrice]

Someone on the Suhr forum was asking about alternative pickups,  I must just say that I think John Suhr's luthier skills are the VERY best eclipsing the likes of PRS, Anderson, Tyler, Grosh, Huber, Moser, Baker and the others. I have been a fan of Suhr since 1986, anyway I posted this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.


If you are looking for an alternative to Suhr pickups try Bare Knuckle pickups, they make the likes of Fralin and others look very uninteresting.
They are completely handmade and scatterwound by a pickup guru here in darkest Devon.
Look at the wind on Fender/Duncan/Fralin etc, the wind is so even it looks like a copper band.
The machines are hand operated, but they are not handwound and made to your own spec by one expert, it would be impossible to manufacture the amount of pickups that they do if they were all handmade by one person holding the bobbin and keeping the tention with their thumbs.

John Suhr posted this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Well actually the Fralins are handwound and our LP series are computerized handwound. Handwound does not mean that the bobbin is held by hand and the wire wrapped around it without a machine. That would be quite impossible, we are talking about 8000 turns on a single coil. Handwound means the wire is guided back and forth by hand. The disadvantage with that .... no two pickups will ever sound the same. That is why we uses a computer winder that is capable of simulating the tension and winding pattern as it is being wound to simulate the handwound pickups, but they will always sound the same, same resonant peak, same AC and DC resistance. The majic of a hand wound pickup needs to be repeatable for it to mean anything and the nature of a true handwound pickup makes that impossible.

I then posted this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

He does actually hold the bobbin and wind keeping the tension with his thumbs and pulls the wire from a spindle.
I don't think there is anyone who can touch him because I have read on harmony central etc, that people have taken out Fralins to put BK in, they really are that good!


Am I right, or am I a raving fool? ha.

Stefan.

[Dave Simpson]

You are a raving fool. :P

Tim is the "MAN", that's all I'm going to say. :twisted:

[Bainzy]

BKP's are wound by hand, and the wire is guided onto the bobbin by a machine. The bobbin is moved by hand so the wire can be scattered across the bobbin. If the pickups were completely handwound, you'd get extremely long waiting times for Bareknuckle Pickups as it'd take ages.

There's a magazine article somewhere on this site that shows how it's done - have a look for it.

[deg0ey]

Tell Mr Suhr that there's no way his hair is as nice as Tim's and therefore he's not allowed an opinion...

One thing i will say is that however Tim winds his pickups, noone else can do it the same and therefore he is the god of everything :)

[38thBeatle]

I think that there will indeed be slight differences between handwound pups certainly but the issue here is that Mr Suhr doesn't think that they can be consistent and obviously we all have a great deal of respect for his views. We know that BK's are consistent. Tim and the guys know what they are doing and wind to a specification and it is their skill that makes them what they are. In the early days, Fender bodies used to be pretty much hand made- albeit to a pattern, they would therefore have differences but they were built to a design and specification. All these years later those early guitars are much sought after.

[Ced777]

Each guitar is different. I don't see why pickups should be perfectly consistent. I don't think perfect reproductibility is important, anyway.

Just my 2 cents...

(Suhr makes reproductible pickups. But does he build reproductible guitars?)

[Peterku]

(Suhr makes reproductible pickups. But does he build reproductible guitars?)

[cough] [cough] [Warmoth] [cough]

[Jonesy]

Agree with CED777

The disadvantage with that .... no two pickups will ever sound the same
 

...Wrooong

[Tim]

Computerised handwinding :lol:  :lol:
Sure no two properly handwound coils are ever 'exactly' the same but the ballpark tone is virtually identical what you do hear are slightly different nuances of the same overall tone.Just the way two players might interpret the same lick-or even one player who is very likely to never play 'exactly' the same thing twice.
Any self respecting pickup maker in the world will acknowledge the fact that a handwound p/up is harmonically more complex than a machine wound and also has a far greater and extended frequency response.The drawback...........it takes time to do!
Just for reference it's not the bobbin moving or a machine guiding the wire-here at BKP we guide the wire onto the bobbin through our fingers while the bobbin is rotated on a flywheel.The tension and wind pattern is determined by the person doing the winding and it's impossible for a machine, computer or whatever to reproduce this.So many have tried but they never sound as good................in the meantime we're just getting on with doing it properly and the only way we know-by hand.

[Skybone]

Oh so that's why you can't find an original Gibson PAF or an original pre CBS Fender pickup on eBay, it's because no-one wants them. Because they all want to sound the same, and not like those classic albums that influenced people to start playing in the first place, so that they could sound exactly like their heroes...

Isn't the term "Computerised Handwinding" somewhat akin to the oft touted misnomer of "Military Intelligence"?

Or like a politician saying "Sorry" and meaning it.

[lulusg]

Anyway, why would I want my pickups to sound like anybodyelses?. Computerized?, it just sounds boring, plastic, artificial, Artless.

[TwilightOdyssey]

Anyway, why would I want my pickups to sound like anybodyelses?. Computerized?, it just sounds boring, plastic, artificial, Artless.

Amen.

[FELINEGUITARS]

The bobbin is held on a rotating flywheel.
The wire is guided onto the rotating bobbin by hand, scattering and overlaying the copper wire as they go

I would imagine that for each pickup model that the winder may have a scheme of how the scatter will go, and certainly works to a set number of turns per coil as dictated by the "recipe" for that pickup. The number of turns  bit may be "computerised" or may just involve a counter that shows how many times the flywheel has rotated- I would have to ask Tim or one of his team about that.

But there will be a degree of difference in two "identical" coils wound this way by hand and that is part of the magic- the human element.

[CaffeineJunkie]

Isn't the term "Computerised Handwinding" somewhat akin to the oft touted misnomer of "Military Intelligence"?

Or like a politician saying "Sorry" and meaning it.

It's called an oxymoron, like "Microsoft Works"

wow, i actually learnt something from that English GCSE i got

[Archer]

The bobbin is held on a rotating flywheel.
The wire is guided onto the rotating bobbin by hand, scattering and overlaying the copper wire as they go

I would imagine that for each pickup model that the winder may have a scheme of how the scatter will go, and certainly works to a set number of turns per coil as dictated by the "recipe" for that pickup. The number of turns  bit may be "computerised" or may just involve a counter that shows how many times the flywheel has rotated- I would have to ask Tim or one of his team about that.

But there will be a degree of difference in two "identical" coils wound this way by hand and that is part of the magic- the human element.

Exactly.  if the measurements on a scatter pattern were taken by a computer then a scatterwind could be duplicated.  Then voila....scatterwinds that can be duplicated.

Suhr pickups sound really nice, his guitars are amazing.   There is plenty of room in the pickup biz.   the top isnt just one company....no offense to Tim or the other guys at BKP intended.