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Author Topic: Black Dog.......WHY?  (Read 13825 times)

3th3r

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Black Dog.......WHY?
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2006, 02:27:43 AM »
Quote from: ftwizard
OK, but do you think there is definite niche for each variation, or would one type cover all.


Does one guitar cover all styles?
Does one amp cover all tones?
Does one sandwich cover all tastes?
Is a ham sandwich with mayo the same as a ham sandwich without mayo?
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screamingdaisy

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Black Dog.......WHY?
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2006, 02:28:26 AM »
Quote from: 3th3r

It appears you haven't spent enough time in forums discussing the minutiae of vintage PAF tone. Some people can hear, or think they can hear, differences in the type of magnet wire insulation, and in the type of nickel in the pickup covers.


Some people need to spend more time playing guitar and less time listening to different pickup covers......
Les Paul -> Orange

Tricalibur

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Black Dog.......WHY?
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2006, 02:35:33 AM »
^ well said...
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3th3r

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Black Dog.......WHY?
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2006, 02:53:53 AM »
Quote from: screamingdaisy
Quote from: 3th3r

It appears you haven't spent enough time in forums discussing the minutiae of vintage PAF tone. Some people can hear, or think they can hear, differences in the type of magnet wire insulation, and in the type of nickel in the pickup covers.


Some people need to spend more time playing guitar and less time listening to different pickup covers......


I completely agree, and yet, here we all are. :wink:

BTW Eric Johnson has said that he prefers certain brands of batteries in his pedals because they give him better tone.   He also uses rubber bands in his Fuzz pedal to hold the battery because he claims the cover alters the tone.
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screamingdaisy

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Black Dog.......WHY?
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2006, 03:11:56 AM »
Quote from: 3th3r


I completely agree, and yet, here we all are. :wink:

BTW Eric Johnson has said that he prefers certain brands of batteries in his pedals because they give him better tone.   He also uses rubber bands in his Fuzz pedal to hold the battery because he claims the cover alters the tone.


I thought the Eric Johnson thing was a misquote and that he actually prefered certain types of batteries (alkaline?) to others (zinc-carbon?)
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fps_dean

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Black Dog.......WHY?
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2006, 04:32:41 AM »
Quote from: screamingdaisy
Maybe he had is bridge rewound a little hotter?


Page did have a special made (overwound) bridge pickup at least on the one Joe Walsh sold to him I think that's the '58 (I know he has a '58 and '59).
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fps_dean

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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2006, 04:33:42 AM »
Quote from: 3th3r
BTW Eric Johnson has said that he prefers certain brands of batteries in his pedals because they give him better tone.   He also uses rubber bands in his Fuzz pedal to hold the battery because he claims the cover alters the tone.


BTW I just determined Eric Johnson is psychotic if this is true....
Real men turn their volume to 11!

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_tom_

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Black Dog.......WHY?
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2006, 08:58:32 AM »
Quote from: ftwizard
Wouldn't one pickup cover all these tones?


Yeah, its called the Mule  :P

At least, I can get most tones I want out of a Mule set.

ftwizard

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Black Dog.......WHY?
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2006, 09:38:09 AM »
Sometimes I think, that as consumers, we just  have too much choice.
I've just ripped the pickups, pots and caps, out of my '59 Historic, and fitted CTS pots and real Bumblebee caps, and now I can't make up my mind what pups to put back in. If there was only one or two to choose from, I'd have done it by now. As it is, I feel if I pick one type, I'll be missing out on something that another type could give me......
So I'm thinking, the reason I bought a LP, is because I want it to sound like a LP and all the classic tones came from, and still do in some cases, a standard PAF.
Anyway, some very good post here, (I don't know about the sandwich analogy though) :D

_tom_

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« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2006, 09:44:59 AM »
If you want the classic PAF LP tone, go for Mules. I know what you mean about having too much choice though..

Carlsuth

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« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2006, 11:32:36 AM »
Going back to the original question about why we need a hotter pickup to emulate jimmy pages normal PAF tone...

Does anyone actually know for sure that pages pickups are PAFs, cos he could have changed them? (just a thought)

Anyway, i know at one point he had a double cream in the bridge, but he had the pickup changed to one with a nickel cover cos i think it got messed up or something...

and remember, if your trying to recreate his tone, he used push pull pots and stuff, so that would have an effect on the sound/tone...

ftwizard

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« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2006, 01:00:51 PM »
Quote from: Carlsuth
Going back to the original question about why we need a hotter pickup to emulate jimmy pages normal PAF tone...

Does anyone actually know for sure that pages pickups are PAFs, cos he could have changed them? (just a thought)

Anyway, i know at one point he had a double cream in the bridge, but he had the pickup changed to one with a nickel cover cos i think it got messed up or something...

and remember, if your trying to recreate his tone, he used push pull pots and stuff, so that would have an effect on the sound/tone...

I wouldn't have thought there was much in the way of replacement pickups at the time, but you never know.
I wasn't pointing at Page's tone in particular, just using him as an example, and it's pretty obvious that you can't make a pickup to produce one particular tone from a particular song(I don't think you'd want to emulate the Black Dog tone, it's awful!)
Anyway, once I get my credit cards cleared, I'm going to order a set of Mules...........or Black Dogs..........or SMs..........!!!!!!!!!!

MDV

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Black Dog.......WHY?
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2006, 01:08:40 PM »
Quote from: Carlsuth
Going back to the original question about why we need a hotter pickup to emulate jimmy pages normal PAF tone...
...


Again, its not that BK are trying to tell you that you need a certain pickup for pages exact sound. Its that led zep were an energetic rock band and the BD is a slightly more powerfull but still PAFy pickup that has that sort of vibe.

Its not meant to be taken literally. If it were Tim would just make a replica of every pickup used by every band he wants to emulate the sound of. They arent that: they have their own character.

If Page played with a black dog he'd sound quite different. Same with every artist connected with the names of every pickup that BK make bar the crawlers and rebel yells, because they are used by the artist.

PhilKing

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« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2006, 01:37:19 PM »
Quote from: MDV
Quote from: ftwizard
OK, but do you think there is definite niche for each variation, or would one type cover all.


You'd have to as a customer that has tried most to all of them. And then you'd get a biased answer because they likely wouldnt have bothered doing that if they werent rather enthuiastic about the different characters of different pickups/guitar sounds.


I have all the BK HB's other than the Painkiller (and I have one of those on order!), so I think I can give my reasons and why I have the different ones.

I initially got a Crawler and 2 P90's for a PRS and an Emerald/Mule set for my LP.  When I heard the sounds I was knocked out, and decided to let Tim rewind a couple of pickups that I had (60 Strat and Pat Number PAF).  At the same time I asked him to make me a matching bridge PU for the PAF.  This gave me a Riff Raff as Tim said the PAF was like the Stormy Monday and the Black Dog (which I had asked about), was not the best match.  I fitted them and was again knocked out by the sound.  Then I wanted something for my PRS Artist, since I had never really been happy with the amplified tone.  I got VHII's after listening to Hayden's PRS.  

Basically what happened was everytime I would upgrade a guitar to BK's, others that I liked started to sound bad in comparison.

But not all BK's suit every guitar.  I had the worst time trying to find a guitar to suit the Abraxas set.  I have had them in 3 guitars and now they sound great (in my old Hamer Sunburst), but they really didn't work in my 53 LP or my chambered one.  Black Dogs however suit the 53 LP perfectly, and the Riff Raff/SM combo works great in the chambered LP.

When I wanted pickups for my 335, Tim suggested unpotted Stormy Mondays because they would let the guitar sound through.  Sure enough, they are great in it.

When you ask Tim about pickups he will ask you what guitar they are going in and what music you like.  Each answer will lead to a particular set of pickups (or if you have ecclectic tastes, a choice of pickups).  But within a guitar type even, the sounds will not be the same because of variations in woods and changes to construction over time.  

The best example of this has to be 57-60 Les Pauls with HB's.  The 57 had a lower output pickup but bigger neck and seems to have found more of a home in US southern rock bands.  The 59 is always given as the classic, by then the neck was a little slimmer and the pickups were hotter.  The 60 had the slimmest neck and this changed the tone.  Even within these there were variations - even the early Les Pauls can vary by about 1 pound in weight, and this makes a difference to the sound and which pickups work.  My 53 is one of the lightest Les Pauls I have ever played, my 86 is much heavier.  They both suit different types of pickups (the 86 is about to get new ones - a Cold Sweat/Painkiller set, as I am moving the pickups from it to a new guitar).

So the reason that there are so many pickups and variations, is not to make your choice more difficult or to make you buy more. it is to give you the ability to get the sound you want from the guitar you have.
So many pickups, so little time

Skybone

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Black Dog.......WHY?
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2006, 02:10:43 PM »
Just have to add my own tuppence ha'pennies worth into this one...

I love the tone of my Black Dog loaded Tokai LP, it's thick, meaty, phat and full of the tone I just couldn't find in any other mass marketed US made pickups. I chose the Black Dog not on the fact that it was a "warm PAF" type modelled on Page's tones, but on the fact that it was designed to push the mids, something which I'd found lacking in those other pickups.

IMO Black Dog's rule.
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